Are all believers "saints" ?

[ross3421]

99.9 % would probably say yes. However, myself being in the .1% is starting to question that the term "saints" strickly refers to born again believers. I see a deeper understanding that "saints" refers yes to born again believers but who die for Christ, martyred. Thoughts.

Mark.

 

[lmnop9876]

yes, saints refers to all those born again in Christ. we are a 'holy people', set apart to serve Him.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Revelation 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[QuantaCura]

Yes, in one sense, we are all saints. In the other sense, the Catholic Church recognizes canonized saints (which include the martyrs). These refer to all those people and witnesses that are seen in Heaven in the book of Revelation (and of course all who have followed in their footsteps). They are often called ancients:

5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:


In this verse, "saints" refers to all of us and ancients would be what Catholics call canonized saints. In this verse we see the ancients offering our prayers.

 

[ross3421]

Revelation 14:12 - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Is the above verse not speaking of two seperate groups of individuals? The following verse speaks of those "who die in the Lord henceforth". Henceforth would be during the so-called tribulation.

Study the word "patience" in Revelation as appears it is in reference to the Church. Likewise study those which keep the coomandments in Revelation and it is a reference to Israel, 144,000 (chapter 12).


sensible ?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I don't think it's two separate groups at all. It's pretty clear-cut honestly (at least in my opinion). A saint is anyone that keeps the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Here's another verse that corresponds....

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And another....

Revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[ross3421]

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who is the woman that has 12 stars ?

Revelation 22:14 - Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Why do they have to come THROUGH the gates ? Israel (Jews) will posess the promised land around the city while those which are "saved" (Gentiles) live within the gates.


Mark.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Who is the woman that has 12 stars ?

"Woman" in Revelation is symbolic of the church. Notice that the woman (church) is pure but returns out of the wilderness with the sign "MOTHER OF HARLOTS...." She (the church) was corrupted.

Why do they have to come THROUGH the gates ? Israel (Jews) will posess the promised land around the city while those which are "saved" (Gentiles) live within the gates.

Can you show me this in scripture?

 

[Oblio]

There is a difference between saints (those in the Church militant who serve Christ) and Saints (those who are now with Christ, having run the race and received their reward, those who feast without ceasing and behold the everlasting beauty of His countenance, the Church triumphant).

 

[ross3421]

"Woman" in Revelation is symbolic of the church.

The woman does not represent the church. The woman of rev. 17 represents a city.

Rev. 17:18 "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth".

We see this woman reigns over the "kings of the earth". Interestly so does the Kingdom of God seen in chapter 21.

(Here is one of the verses which speaks of your second question)

Rev. 21:24 "And the nations which were saved shall walk in the light of it and the KINGS OF THE EARTH do bring thier glory and honour into it".

Both cities are refenced as woman, one a harlot (Babylon) the other a bride (New Jerusalem).

Both cities are decked with gold and precious stones and arrayed in purple (linen offerings).

Both cities have a king.


The woman of Rev. 17 is to represent Jerusalem.



The harlot

The bible only has spoken of one such city as a harlot, Jerusalem.

Chapters which relate Jerusalem to being a harlot.

Isaiah chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 3
Ezekiel chapter 16
Hosea chapter 4

Rev. 17:16 - We see lovers will strip her, this is seen happening to Jerusalem in EZ 16:37.

Rev. 18: 4 - In addition, God called for “MY PEOPLE” to come out of this city and not be partakers of her sins. This reference is to those you will keep the commandments his people Israel.

Rev. 18:6 – This woman is rewarded double for her iniquity. This “double” punishment is seen to Jerusalem in Isaiah 4:2 and Jer. 16:18, 17:18.

Rev. 18:7 - She denies that she is a harlot and a widow, Jerusalem is described as a widow in Lam 1:1.

Rev. 18:22, 23 – We see that the LIGHT OF A CANDLE and the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM and SOUNS OF MILLSTONES shall be heard no more out from this city. This event is seen occurring to Jerusalem in Jer. 7:34, 16:9, 25:10, 33:11.

Notice that the woman (church) is pure but returns out of the wilderness with the sign "MOTHER OF HARLOTS..

Are the two women in Revelation the same? Not sure yet. I see the possible transformation you speak however each woman is carried differently one by a beast the other a eagle. Also, in chapter 12 the woman is protected FROM the dragon but in chapter 17 they have committed fornication ? Things do not add up for them to be the same....


Mark.

 

[Jig]

Yes, in one sense, we are all saints. In the other sense, the Catholic Church recognizes canonized saints (which include the martyrs). These refer to all those people and witnesses that are seen in Heaven in the book of Revelation (and of course all who have followed in their footsteps). They are often called ancients:

5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:


In this verse, "saints" refers to all of us and ancients would be what Catholics call canonized saints. In this verse we see the ancients offering our prayers.

It's impossible to know for sure who the 24 elders are. It's reasonable to say they are saints of the past, but it is impossible to be dogmatic on this topic. Some say they represent the twelve apostles and the twelve tribes of Israel , still others suggest they are angels of special importance (you can rule this one out though). The bible just does not give enough infomation on this.

 

[lismore]

99.9 % would probably say yes. However, myself being in the .1% is starting to question that the term "saints" strickly refers to born again believers. I see a deeper understanding that "saints" refers yes to born again believers but who die for Christ, martyred. Thoughts.

Mark.

Hi

The Greek word from whence we get martyr means 'witness', those who witnessed their faith to the end.

All those sanctified by Jesus Christ are saints.

Paul wrote to those called to be saints, those sanctified by Christ Jesus.