Are Adventist too overly concerned with what goes in the mouth?

[maco]

Are Adventist so overly concerned with what goes in the mouth that we are willing to overlook a huge change in the New Testament regarding unclean meats?

It seems to me that we have a tendency to manipulate Scripture to fit a health message that is not found in the Bible.

As I read the Old Testament I find no regulation of food based on health reasons. I do see regulations based on identity.

In the Old Testament we find God using certain standards to call a people out of the world to be His own.

We find certain things like forbidden foods, not mixing different threads and so on. These things were given to these people to make them different from the people around them. We don't find these same requirements of separation in the New Testament. What we do find is that in Christ there is neither Jew or Gentile, male of female, slave or free.

The one thing that God uses to call a people to Himself in the New Testament is belief in His Son, not food or drink or even thread.

Galatians 3:27-29 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are Abraham's seed based on being in Christ, not on food or drink.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

I understand that this dispute in this above verse was over vegetables but the statement made is still the Kingdom of God is not in food or drink.

1 Corinthians 10:25-27 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience' sake; for "The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness.'' If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake.

Here we have a command to eat whatever is sold in the market and whatever is set before you. I understand the next verse begins to speak of meat offered to idols but this is an added thought to what was said prior.

1 Corinthians 10:28 But if anyone says to you, "This was offered to idols,'' do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience' sake; for "The earth is the Lord's, and all its fullness.''

The earth is the Lord's and ALL it's fullness. Some say that there would be no unclean meats at the houses these Apostles ate at because they went to the Jews but read the verses that follow these verses.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give no occasions of stumbling, either to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the church of God:

Jews are concerned about unclean meat, Greeks are not, as well as, Christians. We are free to eat all things as long as it doesn't offend a Jew, Greek or Christian.

Matthew 15:17 "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and is eliminated?

I understand that the dispute was over unwashed hands but it doesn't negate the statement, in other words, it doesn't matter if it was unwashed hands or unwashed dishes the truth remains, what goes in the mouth does not defile the person.

Mark 7:18-23 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, "because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?'' And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man.''

All is lawful for me but we are not to be enslaved to them. The stomach was made for food and food for the stomach and both of these are temporary.

1 Corinthians 6:11-13 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

It's sexual acts of immorality done with the body, not food, that God is concerned about.

Some will teach not to eat certain foods but those who know the truth can eat them.

1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

I understand that it's the word that sanctifies or sets apart the food to be eaten. But why point us to Leviticus when the New Testament is just as much the word of God as the Old Testament.

1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving.

God has used many things in the Old Testament to separate a people for Himself but we don't find these standards of separation in the New Testament. What we do find is love for one another and love for God. This love will manifest itself as a commandment keeping people because God will write His law on our hearts.

There is about 18 inches between religion and salvation. That 18 inches is the distance between the mind and the heart.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Amen and Amen...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

what goes in the mouth through the stomach into the intestines may and often does get into the bloodstream, kidneys, liver and brain.
80% of people or more suffer pain and physical and mental suffering
because of what they take in (although they would suffer anyway for their unbelief).
It Is Written: watch and see the difference in those who live righteously and those who live wickedly (the wicked never get it).
sda may or may not live righteously - being sda doesn't mean a right life with Yhwh although outwardly it is closer than other groups generally speaking (i've met several sda's that won't open their hearts and homes to Jesus, why? -who knows? that's just the same as all the other groups in tulsa, except the homeless and poor who share what they have freely)


might have gotten away from the op; but, simply, what you eat is what makes you healthy or makes you sick, with exceptions. the just (righteous) shall live by faith . . . . . and the faithful will not eat anything that daniel would not eat (not on purpose anyway).
remember Scripture: daniel and his men were the wisest in the land because of what they ate. (go read it, it is simple).

 

[maco]

what goes in the mouth through the stomach into the intestines may and often does get into the bloodstream, kidneys, liver and brain.
80% of people or more suffer pain and physical and mental suffering
because of what they take in (although they would suffer anyway for their unbelief).
It Is Written: watch and see the difference in those who live righteously and those who live wickedly (the wicked never get it).
sda may or may not live righteously - being sda doesn't mean a right life with Yhwh although outwardly it is closer than other groups generally speaking (i've met several sda's that won't open their hearts and homes to Jesus, why? -who knows? that's just the same as all the other groups in tulsa, except the homeless and poor who share what they have freely)

might have gotten away from the op; but, simply, what you eat is what makes you healthy or makes you sick, with exceptions. the just (righteous) shall live by faith . . . . . and the faithful will not eat anything that daniel would not eat (not on purpose anyway).
remember Scripture: daniel and his men were the wisest in the land because of what they ate. (go read it, it is simple).

Hi yeshuaslavejeff,

Does Daniel have more wisdom than Jesus? Jesus ate meat and drank wine.

Now regarding Daniel, many people use the verses found in Daniel 1:8-15 to prove that those on a vegetarian diet have a special power from God. But this was a rare incident in which God was using Daniel to reach the King. Daniel refused to eat the King's food to prove that he had a wisdom that was not like any other in his court.

Daniel 1:12 "Please test your servants for ten days, and let them give us vegetables to eat and water to drink.

God even prepared the way for Daniel by bringing favor upon Daniel from the chief.

Daniel 1:9 Now God had brought Daniel into the favor and good will of the chief of the eunuchs.

All this was done to bring Daniel to the King's attention for what was to take place in the future through Daniel.

Daniel 1:16-20 Thus the steward took away their portion of delicacies and the wine that they were to drink, and gave them vegetables. As for these four young men, God gave them knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom; and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams. Now at the end of the days, when the king had said that they should be brought in, the chief of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar. Then the king interviewed them, and among them all none was found like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah; therefore they served before the king. And in all matters of wisdom and understanding about which the king examined them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers who were in all his realm.

This whole incident was not to teach us that Daniel ate only vegetables, but rather, to prove that God was with him in wisdom in the eyes of the King. Daniel choose not to eat from the King's table at that particular time but it does not prove that Daniel never ate rich food, meat or that he never drank wine. As a matter of fact the Bible teaches us that Daniel did in fact eat and drink these things.

Daniel 10:2-3 In those days I, Daniel, was mourning three full weeks. I ate no pleasant food, no meat or wine came into my mouth, nor did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Here we have Daniel fasting for three weeks where he ate no rich foods, meat or drank any wine till the three weeks were fulfilled. This tells me that prior to these three weeks and after the three weeks he did eat and drink these things.

I have no problem with someone eating only vegetables as a personal choice but not as a sign of righteousness or holiness. Likewise, it's not a sign of weakness or sinfulness not to eat only vegetables or to eat meat and drink wine, as a matter of fact, the New Testament tells us that those who don't eat meat or drink wine are the weak ones in the faith because they don't understand.

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

Let us use the whole Bible to draw our doctrines otherwise we will cause divisions within the body of Christ.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Maco, why do you have to start the same basic thread over and over again?

This has been covered in about 10 of your other threads already.

I don't bat an eyelash on any given day about NOT eating meat or NOT drinking alcohol. It's not a concern for me, it's second nature.

If you have a problem with my eating habits, or anyone else's, you might want to ask yourself why you're so concerned about it. Those of us that have chosen a healthier lifestyle and prefer to hold onto our brain cells, do so willingly and without any effort at all.

I saw a show the other night about Mad Cow Disease and as I watched that poor animal scream and wallow in its own feces, I was once again reassured that not eating meat is the right choice for me.

If that makes me weak, you should've seen the cow! I'm sure HE wished he hadn't been fed cow either.

 

[Endium]

You keep opening up threads telling people it doesnt matter what they eat or drink, but I have yet to see one thread opened that was telling people they need to stay away from meat to be saved. It is one think to bring out something new (i.e. different texts from the ones you keep quoting.) but if I'm not mistaken you just keep saying the same thing over and over.

Where are these Adventists who are overly concenered? Where is any Adventist who says that eating and drinking is requirement for salvation? If there are none, then just who are you gearing these posts towards?

 

[maco]

This was the first thread I posted on unclean meats.

According to most SDAs, not all, what we eat and drink does have an effect on our salvation. The reason for this is because they have been taught to believe that certain things are sinful when infact they are not. This is a very dangerous misunderstanding we need to correct within the SDA.

If you don't like what I posts then don't read them or at least give some Bible verses (not statistics) that support your belief.

 

[maco]

Maco, why do you have to start the same basic thread over and over again?

This has been covered in about 10 of your other threads already.

I don't bat an eyelash on any given day about NOT eating meat or NOT drinking alcohol. It's not a concern for me, it's second nature.

If you have a problem with my eating habits, or anyone else's, you might want to ask yourself why you're so concerned about it. Those of us that have chosen a healthier lifestyle and prefer to hold onto our brain cells, do so willingly and without any effort at all.

I saw a show the other night about Mad Cow Disease and as I watched that poor animal scream and wallow in its own feces, I was once again reassured that not eating meat is the right choice for me.

If that makes me weak, you should've seen the cow! I'm sure HE wished he hadn't been fed cow either.

Not eating meat because of what you saw on TV is a good reason not to eat meat. I once stopped using spinich in my salad because of what I saw on TV. Just don't use the Bible to condemn meat eaters and wine drinkers for if you do you will not be holding to sound doctrines.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Maco, come on, this is not the first thread you've started on this subject. It's like the tenth, and you always use the same verses to support your claim.

Nobody is telling YOU what to eat or not eat, so quit telling us we're too legalistic when you are the one starting thread after thread after thread about food and wine.

If anyone is forcing their opinion on anyone, it's you.

 

[maco]

Maco, come on, this is not the first thread you've started on this subject. It's like the tenth, and you always use the same verses to support your claim.

Nobody is telling YOU what to eat or not eat, so quit telling us we're too legalistic when you are the one starting thread after thread after thread about food and wine.

If anyone is forcing their opinion on anyone, it's you.

If you read my threads you would see that all my threads had to do with meat in general. This is the first thread regarding unclean meat for up until this point I believed God still required His people to abstain from it.

When I post a thread regarding any particular belief I'm not addressing individuals, but rather, the SDA denomination itself. Those who hold these beliefs will defend their way of believing but those within the SDA who have a clear understanding of Bible truth will say amen to what I post. Which catagory are you in?

Are you of the belief that eating meat, whether clean or unclean, and drinking wine will have an effect on salvation?

Do you believe that if a person wears jewelry or drinks wine they can't be baptized. If you do then this is a dangerous system of belief. This is what I am trying to correct within our church family.

 

[goodearth]

I hesitate to even say anything out of fear of getting flamed by maco. (joke by the way) I will give it a shot. I believe that the old testament is as valid as the new testament in guiding us in our lives. I do not subscribe to the idea of "New Testament Christians". I do believe that a person should abstain from eating "unclean meat". The reason I believe this is from reading the passages in the old testament that clearly outline what meats we can and can not eat. (Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14). I will not argue with anyone over what I believe because it is not my place to tell others how to live their lives and it is not theirs to tell me. Each of us has our own walk with the Lord.

There are people in the church that eat a Vegetarian diet or even a Vegan diet. I have never heard one of them say that it was for their salvation. It is them living a life style that promotes health. For them it is a good thing for others it may not be. To say that the Church as a whole promotes this as a eat for salvation situation is very extreme in my opinion. It is just a matter of health.

P.S. Maco - Do you not see your arrogance in this statement you made ? "When I post a thread regarding any particular belief I'm not addressing individuals, but rather, the SDA denomination itself. Those who hold these beliefs will defend their way of believing but those within the SDA who have a clear understanding of Bible truth will say amen to what I post. Which category are you in?" So your understanding of the Bible is somehow superior to everyone els?
Did I read that correctly? You are always right and we should all follow your every word and change everything we hold to be the truth. If I misunderstand let me know.

One of the things that drew me to the SDA church was the Churches relentless pursuit for the "Truth". The church is as human as you and I which means there will be mistakes made. However those mistakes are forgiven and we move forward looking for the Truth. The last thing we need is bitterness, anger, or arrogance. Those are all products of Satan.

I don't know you brother maco but I would think from what I read that you are having a hard time or are angry or something is going on with you that we don't understand. I am sorry and if there is anything I can do to help you let me know. We love you as a brother in christ and I don't think anyone here wants you to feel like you are outside the church.

God Bless us all and may we all walk with Jesus a bit closer everyday
GoodEarth

 

[TrustAndObey]

Maco, I'm sorry if you think your sudden revelation about eating unclean meats will have any bearing on my belief that we cannot eat them.

No offense, but it doesn't change how I feel at all. They aren't called unclean for nothin'.

 

[maco]

Maco, I'm sorry if you think your sudden revelation about eating unclean meats will have any bearing on my belief that we cannot eat them.

No offense, but it doesn't change how I feel at all. They aren't called unclean for nothin'.

I'm not trying to make anyone eat anything. What I'm trying to do is correct wrong Bible beliefs.

Could you answer my questions?

Do you believe all meat harms the body?

Do you believe eating meat is a salvation issue?

Do you believe drinking wine, wearing jewelry or going to theater is a salvation issue?

Do you believe one needs to stop wearing jewelry or make up, drinking wine, dancing or going to theater before they can be baptized?

Looking foreward to your answers.

 

[maco]

I hesitate to even say anything out of fear of getting flamed by maco. (joke by the way) I will give it a shot. I believe that the old testament is as valid as the new testament in guiding us in our lives. I do not subscribe to the idea of "New Testament Christians". I do believe that a person should abstain from eating "unclean meat". The reason I believe this is from reading the passages in the old testament that clearly outline what meats we can and can not eat. (Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14). I will not argue with anyone over what I believe because it is not my place to tell others how to live their lives and it is not theirs to tell me. Each of us has our own walk with the Lord.

There are people in the church that eat a Vegetarian diet or even a Vegan diet. I have never heard one of them say that it was for their salvation. It is them living a life style that promotes health. For them it is a good thing for others it may not be. To say that the Church as a whole promotes this as a eat for salvation situation is very extreme in my opinion. It is just a matter of health.

P.S. Maco - Do you not see your arrogance in this statement you made ? "When I post a thread regarding any particular belief I'm not addressing individuals, but rather, the SDA denomination itself. Those who hold these beliefs will defend their way of believing but those within the SDA who have a clear understanding of Bible truth will say amen to what I post. Which category are you in?" So your understanding of the Bible is somehow superior to everyone els?
Did I read that correctly? You are always right and we should all follow your every word and change everything we hold to be the truth. If I misunderstand let me know.

One of the things that drew me to the SDA church was the Churches relentless pursuit for the "Truth". The church is as human as you and I which means there will be mistakes made. However those mistakes are forgiven and we move forward looking for the Truth. The last thing we need is bitterness, anger, or arrogance. Those are all products of Satan.

I don't know you brother maco but I would think from what I read that you are having a hard time or are angry or something is going on with you that we don't understand. I am sorry and if there is anything I can do to help you let me know. We love you as a brother in christ and I don't think anyone here wants you to feel like you are outside the church.

God Bless us all and may we all walk with Jesus a bit closer everyday
GoodEarth

Hi GoodEarth,

First of all I'm not trying to make anyone eat anything. I believe it's a good thing not to eat meat but I have a problem when people make eating meat a sin issue. I think it's very good to eat and live healthy but not to push it to the point of vegan. People can eat healthy in a practical way without extreemisim to the point of looking down at those who are not vegan or vegetarian.

It's hard to bring people into the church if these things are spoken of as sinful.

I do a prison Bible study. About three weeks ago I was showing a DVD teching to about 15 inmates. Towards the end of the DVD the teacher made a comment that anyone who smokes or drinks wine will not be in heaven. When the teacher said this a few of the guys got up a walked out. This bothered me so this is why I'm posting these things.

I myself don't eat unclean meats but the New Testament sure seems to be making a change regarding unclean meat, but I'm still open for suggestions in that area.

I don't believe I have all the answers but when I share some of these things with other SDA members such as, jewelry, wine, theater, dancing and so on they aggree that these things are not sinful in themselves.

I guess it will just have to be an individual thing and if I hear anyone condemning or calling something sinful such as wearing earrings or going to the theater when it's not sinful I guess I will just have to correct them individually.

Anyway, thanks for your reply.

Your brother in Christ,
John

 

[djconklin]

Are Adventist so overly concerned with what goes in the mouth that we are willing to overlook a huge change in the New Testament regarding unclean meats?

You are assuming that there was a "huge change" in the first place. There wasn't.

 

[djconklin]

Do you believe eating meat is a salvation issue?

If you knew that eating that particular piece of meat was going to make you very sick, if not kill you, would it be a sin to eat it? Yes. The Good Lord gave you a brain to use. Now some people (like myself) get physically sick if we eat too much (i.e., more than a teaspoon full) of vegetables or fruit. So, we're stuck, we have to eat some meat. Does that mean I go out and buy a pork chop (which I used to love!)? No. God as our designer and manufacturerer told us what not to eat and so I don't. Now some people may feel I'm a "jerk" for saying that. But, that's the way it is.

BTW, have you been to the feed mill yet to read the insturctions on the back of the can of Drano to see how to flush out a pig? Do you know how poor a job the local sewage treatment plant does to clean up the waste (which is fed on by the bottom dwellers: snails, crabs, lobsters, catfish, etc.) before they discharge it into the local rivers, lakes and/or sea?

 

[maco]

You are assuming that there was a "huge change" in the first place. There wasn't.

Did you read my post? There sure seems to be a lot of verses that take the emphasis off food and drink.

Here are just a couple.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving.

 

[maco]

djconklin If you knew that eating that particular piece of meat was going to make you very sick, if not kill you, would it be a sin to eat it? Yes. The Good Lord gave you a brain to use. Now some people (like myself) get physically sick if we eat too much (i.e., more than a teaspoon full) of vegetables or fruit. So, we're stuck, we have to eat some meat. Does that mean I go out and buy a pork chop (which I used to love!)? No. God as our designer and manufacturerer told us what not to eat and so I don't. Now some people may feel I'm a "jerk" for saying that. But, that's the way it is.

How do you feel about mixing thread?

BTW, have you been to the feed mill yet to read the insturctions on the back of the can of Drano to see how to flush out a pig? Do you know how poor a job the local sewage treatment plant does to clean up the waste (which is fed on by the bottom dwellers: snails, crabs, lobsters, catfish, etc.) before they discharge it into the local rivers, lakes and/or sea?

I don't think these things were a problem back in the OT days.

Did you know that Daniel ate rich foods, meat and drank wine?

Did you know that God told Noah to eat all meats?

How do you think Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals?

Do you think that maybe an unclean animal to Noah was one that had an imperfection so it couldn't be used for the sacrifice?

Just wondering what your thoughts are on these things?

 

[TrustAndObey]

I'm not trying to make anyone eat anything. What I'm trying to do is correct wrong Bible beliefs.

Could you answer my questions?

Do you believe all meat harms the body? These days? You betcha! Not only that, they are not slaughtered and prepared in the biblical way.

Do you believe eating meat is a salvation issue? No, I don't. I do believe that willfully eating meats that God deemed unclean is rebellion against Him however. I also believe we are instructed to care for our temples. You don't get high cholesterol from vegetables and fruits. Your body does not have to have meat to sustain life either.

Do you believe drinking wine, wearing jewelry or going to theater is a salvation issue? I cannot drink Maco. I have never drank just to enjoy the flavor, it has always been to become intoxicated. I'm not alone on that one. I don't miss it, don't need it, don't want it.

Wearing jewelry is for attention. Attention you could get without it. People should work on their inside appearance more than their outside. My two cents.

Name one movie made in the last ten years that you think glorifies God and/or you wouldn't be embarrassed to watch sitting right beside Jesus or your pastor?

Do you believe one needs to stop wearing jewelry or make up, drinking wine, dancing or going to theater before they can be baptized? People give up different things in their lives to become like Christ before their baptisms. It's not my job to tell them what they should give up. People make their own choices and God convicts people in His own time, not mine.

Looking foreward to your answers. I'm sure I will never answer them to your satisfaction but you got honesty regardless.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Maco, I don't know WHAT is happening to my manners these days.

My first intention when I read your posts was completely forgotten when I started responding. My first intention was to say "GOD BLESS YOU BROTHER!" when you mentioned helping in a prison ministry.

That's a special kind of love right there Maco, and I commend you for extending it.

I want to do it too but it's really out of my comfort zone. I start to pursue it and then life gets in the way, and then I feel convicted to ask questions again, then life.......

There is a wonderful pamphlet that the prison here hands out to prisoners. The cover says "The SUPREME COURT Of all Creation has issued to you this OFFICIAL PARDON authorized by THE LORD OF JUSTICE". It goes on and brought me to tears (and I'm sure many an inmate has wept over these words as well).

Would you like me to scan it for you so you can make some for your prison ministry?

 

[Endium]

Maco,

Again I think it's good that you want to keep people from being legalistic, however the problem that I have is not one that can be fixed by me just not reading these threads.

It's not a bad thing to question certain doctrines or beliefs and to search the scriptures for answers. When it comes to meat-eating, however, you keeping asking for someone to provide scripture. Scripture has been provided in nearly all of the previous threads that I have seen you open on this subject, yet you do not seem to regard it. I believe you are misinterpreting the scriptures that you are using to prove your points, and this has been discussed previously. Eventually when a thread dies out you just open a new one that sooner or later comes back to the same argument again.

While I could just ignore these topics, I believe that for the sake of lurkers and new members these threads need to be replied to so that people can have the complete view. At the very least, if you must continue these discussions then please make the posts in already existing threads instead of opening new ones? If the older thread falls off the first page, perhaps consider bumping it up or something instead of making a new thread. I don't think all these threads revolving around the same topic is a good idea.

Well all of this is just my opinion anyway, and I believe that you do have good intentions.

Either way I will end by saying the Bible does not teach in any way that the unclean meats of the OT became clean in the NT. What meats to eat or not eat was a non-issue in that time.

The Bible doesn't explicitly state that we should refrain from all meats, however it does teach it in principle. From looking at the condition in which commercial meat is made, and looking at how the Bible tells us to treat ourselves, and finally looking at how easy it is now to live as a vegetarian, one can plainly see that God wants us to stay away from all meats.

Just what is a "salvation issue" to you? It is my goal to live up to the very high standard God has placed for me. I know what to do, so it would be rebellion for me to go against it now, regardless of whether someone else may call it a "salvation issue" or not.