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applepowerpc said:Jews, Muslims & Christians have known (all too rare, unfortunately, the Golden Age in Spain was a long time ago) periods of peaceful coexistence.
Indeed. Such as Jerusalem, for the past 1000 years before 1948 came along. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived peacefully alongside each other in Jerusalem for a long time. The Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem and the wailing wall both aren't exactly still standing because the evil, belligerent Muslims couldn't have levelled them both hundreds of years ago. Jews also lived peacefully in Iraq for thousands of years as well, but...we're not supposed to know that....
The problem is Zionism. Say all you want, but anti-Zionism is *NOT* anti-Judaism. Judaism is nothing special--it's no better or worse than any other non-Christian religion out there--and in America you're free to practice it. Now suddenly we need this "Jewish holy state", right on top of the peacefully-coexisting Muslims' homes, we need to bomb and terrorize Sephardic Iraqi Jews into making aliyah, Sephardic AND Yemenite Jews are treated as inferior citizens in the Zionist apartheid Israeli state, and now the rest of the world somehow has to be dragged into this mess.
Jews have proven they can peacefully coexist. Zionists have proven they cannot.
If there had been news outlets, like there are today, in those times, the Church would of condemned this. Today, where a news conference can be called in an instant, there is no outrage from the Muslim community over these so-called "fundamentalists". These aren't "fundamentalists". They're following the Quran just like they're supposed to.stray bullet said:Unlike the Crusades where knights took men, women and children out of their homes and murdered them in sight of their enemies to provoke them to attack.
I don't know why people keep making this bigoted claim. To believe that, again, it's necessary to entirely ignore the billion peaceful Muslims in the world.UnhandledException said:No. It's the face of Islam.
For some reason, I find it hard to believe that either you or the mainstream media keep a close eye on "the Muslim community" and its reactions to these things.UnhandledException said:Today, where a news conference can be called in an instant, there is no outrage from the Muslim community over these so-called "fundamentalists".
Yes, Malaysia is at the moment under a moderate government. If common sense prevails, they won't go down the fundamentalist path. However, my understanding is that a fundamentalist party is waiting in the wings as an alternative to the current government.Kripost said:I am not so sure of the situation in Nigeria and Sudan, but as a Malaysian, I am quite certain of how it is in Malaysia.
In Malaysia, the Sharia Law is only made binding to Muslim, and it is modified such that there are no amputations, or stonings. People from other religions are free to worship as they like, as long as they do not present a disruptive force in society. There are also no additional taxes imposed on non-muslims. However, it is illegal to proselytize a Muslim. As for muslim apostates, the penalty is usually a fine or rehabilitation. Technically, in one state ruled by a 'fundamentalist' party, there is a death penalty, but cannot be carried out because of opposition from the Federal government.
Although there is some form of religious police in Malaysia, they hardly have any real power, as they do not have judicial authority. Their overzealous acts as reported in the papers may be embarassing for the country, but fortunately they are few are far between. Usually there will be an outcry in the local papers criticising the actions of their actions.
The majority of the Muslim population in the country are moderates, and do not want a fundamentalist state. This is especially so in the urban areas, where the people are generally more educated, have more interaction with non-muslims, and recognise that extremism would retard the economy. Moreover there are Islamic women rights organization, who are rather vocal in the country, and is supported by the government.
gybefan said:I consider truth to be not speaking against a religion that I don't fully understand.
You asked why defend them - I said why not, if they deserve defense?
It's interesting that you avoid thinking about the 1.3 billion Muslims who are peaceful, and solely consider the examples of the bad ones. Isn't this what some conservatives are decrying in the case of the prison abuses?
based on what I've seen in this thread alone, the matter is nowhere near as clear-cut as you seem to think.jameseb said:Then that applies to you. I, on the other hand, understand enough to think Islam is a false religion and its 'prophet' an advocate of violence.
I certainly don't think it's "a false religion" - it's just a religion I don't subscribe to.jameseb said:Okay. I accept that you, as a Christian, think another religion, a false religion, deserves to be defend against other Christians that call it false as well. Have I missed anything here?
if you're just going to form your judgment of Islam on the basis of terrorist actions, and you're ignoring the billion peaceful Muslims - yeah, I'd say you're avoiding thinking of them.jameseb said:"Interesting?" Did I say I avoided thinking of them? Can you quote that?
And you weren't initially attacking the religion on the grounds of its supposed theological falsehood as you're doing now. If I understood correctly, you were making the claim, paraphrased, that it's a religion of violence, or some such. Have I got that right?jameseb said:I feel for each one of these people because they believe in a false religion. You feel they should be loved by defending their Islamic religion. I feel they should be loved by trying to help them understand their religion is false and to accept the one and only savior, our lord the Christ.
Why do you think political values and Christian values are necessarily contradictory? Are you saying the prison abuses are unacceptable on political grounds, but acceptable in light of Christian values?jameseb said:Prison abuses? Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you placing political values above Christian ones?
gybefan said:based on what I've seen in this thread alone, the matter is nowhere near as clear-cut as you seem to think.
I certainly don't think it's "a false religion" - it's just a religion I don't subscribe to.
if you're just going to form your judgment of Islam on the basis of terrorist actions, and you're ignoring the billion peaceful Muslims - yeah, I'd say you're avoiding thinking of them.
And you weren't initially attacking the religion on the grounds of its supposed theological falsehood as you're doing now. If I understood correctly, you were making the claim, paraphrased, that it's a religion of violence, or some such. Have I got that right?
Why do you think political values and Christian values are necessarily contradictory? Are you saying the prison abuses are unacceptable on political grounds, but acceptable in light of Christian values?
Not really; I just found them ambiguous, but I appreciate the clarification.jameseb said:Again, you are proving to be impossible to discuss this issue with as you keep putting words in my mouth.
fair enough.jameseb said:It is not the terrorists that I judge the religion by....it is by its 'founder' and prophet, Muhammad. You can say what you like about what I'm "thinking," but personally, I don't care what you believe in regards to me.
that's sort of a non sequitur though; the behavior of the man who founded the religion doesn't necessarily - and in the case of Islam, simply does not - find its reflection in the religion's teachings or its adherents.jameseb said:Really? Please, point out where I did that? That's funny since I've always said that it was the prophet Muhammad's exploits that lead to my judgement on Islam being a perpetrator of violence.
surely you don't think Christian values and "liberal values" are mutually exclusive??jameseb said:I think you were supplanting Christian values in support of your liberal values in the discussion.
of course you didn't say that, and of course I didn't say that you said any such thing. I just needed a little clarification of ambiguous statements.jameseb said:And where in the name of Zeus did I suggest it was "alright" for the prisoners to be abused? Of course it wasn't... it was heinous. Stop putting words in my mouth..................
jameseb said:And I think you better watch the attitude.
JPPT1974 said:People who say stuff and blame on others should be the ones who take the blame on one person or several. That person is themselves.
rahma said:Made me sick, like lots of things recently. What did you expect? But then again, having someone personally blame me for that and shout nasty words at me today as I was walking home from a final made me sick too. I wish people would stop telling me to "go home." Central wisconsin isn't any fun.
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