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Appropriate Level of Intimacy before marriage...

Kisses4u

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I am new to this site, so if this question was posted elsewhere - I would be very greatful to anyone who can point me in that direction. I was looking but had no luck finding it.

If its not on the site l think its about time it is! I was wondering what everyone's opinion on appropriate levels of intimacy are before marriage. Please give details - your time and advice are greatly appreciated.
 

Briseis

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That's really a personal conviction. Some kiss, some don't. A general rule of thumb is that if you wouldn't do it in front of your parents, you shouldn't be doing it.

CJ
I disagree with that rule of thumb because some ppl feel awkward doing anything in front of anyone.... but I guess that works for me anyway since I follow 1Tim 5:1-2, which says you should treat women with as much purity as your mother or sister.
 
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eatenbylocusts

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I couldn't imagine not kissing my SO before marriage. I think there's some connecting that goes on with kissing that can indicate a lot about compatibility physically. I have been working on boundaries since being back in the dating world.

I would tell my first dates-no kissing until at least the 3rd date. Only 3 men in more that 3 years have made it that far. I have an 8 month relationship now that started before I had really figured out my boundaries. I've started to think that french kissing should wait until exclusive dating, though it's too late for my current relationship. Further touching, if at all would be after an official engagement with date set. Sex is for marriage.

Keep in mind I'm 40 and been married. My answers are colored by my experiences. If you're looking for permission for oral sex or something similar I highly suggest you don't go there in a dating relationship. It gets in the way of a dating relationship. With that said, I believe in short engagements just long enough to plan a wedding and in my book that is the only time when more intimate touching will not change the outcome of deciding on marriage. It is still dangerous in that it can possibly lead to intercourse, so why go there if you don't have to?
 
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miss_klara

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My boyfriend and I have a few strict rules set up:
-No french kissing
-If we are kissing on the couch, it can't be in an intimate cuddling position
-Clothes stay firmly in place (so no putting his hand up my shirt to touch my back, and stuff)
-No kissing of the necks

We do pinch/slap each others' butts (as well as many other things) when we're play fighting, but once we're out of the play-fighting scenario, hands stay away from butts

We're still struggling with other boundaries, but we've realised that putting 17 rules in place in one go (as we tried about a month ago) is impossible, because you're going cold turkey. So, we've addressed the really urgent issues, and the rest of the boundaries will be brought in gradually, so we can get used to it. And it's working better than any other 'boundary plan' we've tried so far :)
 
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Briseis

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We're still struggling with other boundaries, but we've realised that putting 17 rules in place in one go (as we tried about a month ago) is impossible, because you're going cold turkey. So, we've addressed the really urgent issues, and the rest of the boundaries will be brought in gradually, so we can get used to it. And it's working better than any other 'boundary plan' we've tried so far :)

I think cold turkey works best because then you dont have all these small things reminding you of what you are missing.
 
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josh84

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Hey all, Im new here. My name is Josh and im 22. One thing that I have realized with sexual sin is that it ONLY brings problems, It might feel good for a little bit,but thats it. Its NOT worth it. Nobody is perfect and if you are in a relationship you most likely will have to deal with these temptations. Ive been with my girlfriend for 5 and a half years. Yes there have been times in the past when we`ve been a bit too touchy. Whenever that happened we would stop right away and pray for forgiveness. We know God forgave us but the shame was often times still there. Weve grown so much since then and now whenever we kiss and I ( or her ) feel our emotions gettin up we stop RIGHT AWAY. We try to not be in any places when temptation may arise ( this is why i believe we have slipped in the past ) such as alone at my house in the dark cuddling etcetetce you guys know what I mean. We truly want to live pure lives and I must say its been a REALLY long while since we did anything besides just kiss. Speaking of kissing, we do not kiss for a prolonged period of time. There is SO much I can and want to say but i am at work now and ill post it tonight when i am at home. The bottom line is that Sexual sin is not worth it. You loose too much!!!
 
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josh84

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One more thing, but this is for us guys. Always screen what your intentions are. I have to be honest, there were times in the past when i have invited my GF over to " watch a movie". YEAH RIGHT! I know in myheart that i was planning on setting the mood and wantin to make out etc etc. Ive been convicted of this a while back and whenever i get that feeling that I want to make out or whatever, (cuz cmon, I do not think i am the ONLY one who dealt with this. we are guys hahaha lets be honest, I know you guys know what I talking about) , we just do something else that evening such as go for an ice cream , watch a movie at her house with her parents etcetc.
 
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Elk

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Hey,

I've been married now for 2 years, but previous to that my husband and I were together for 4 years before we got married.. We struggled with sexual sin alot towards the end, and I've got to say I still hate the choices i took and my actions. We made mistakes...we never got all the way, though thats still not an excuse.

Its such a hard topic because there is no other sin like it. One day its a sin, and the next (with marriage) its not.
I found with us that we also would stop and pray every time things got a bit heated, but it never seemed to help...i'm pretty sure, it didn't because our prayers weren't whole hearted. One part of us wanted it to stop but an overwhelming majority said "Keep going!!!"

It was explained to me once, everyones life is like a house, and in everyones house there is always a door that they keep shut. You invite Jesus into your life/house, but there is that door you don't want him to go into. For me, sexual sin was my "room/door". We wnated to be with each other so much that I was trying to not let God see. (Hmm.. stupid I know!!)

If I had my time over... I'd say no "real" kissing for the first year..and depending on age...if you know he/she is the one...get married after 2. I of course didn't get to make the choice as to when we got married. But i have to say 4 years is WAY to long... I don't know even 1 person who has been in a relationship over 2 years that has not fallen to some degree into sexual sin, even those people who you swear would never have struggled.. they have! Its so hard to deal with because outside of the internet no one talks about it! I think there is a need for that to change in churches and that we are all accountable to one another.

Thats another idea... Get a close christian friend.. and get them to ask you how you are going every week. It will be hard admitting the truth to them, but thats part of the beauty of it! You don't want to tell them you failed...AGAIN... !

If you know the person is right and you love them.. Marry them... waiting for money/sercurity is all rubbish. God will provide! Keep yourselves holy and blameless before God.

Anyway thats my rant.. hope its been somewhat helpful!
 
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enelya_taralom

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Hey,

I'm a bit late in this conversation, but I actually came across an article that I think will be benefical to this discussion. It's a bit lenghtly, but I got alot from and and pray that it helps...

God Bless :hug:

FROM: http://www.theuniversityconcourse.com/V,7,3-27-2000/vanSchaijik.htm

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the University Concourse
Volume V, Issue 7
March 27, 2000




[SIZE=+2]A Catholic critique of a current notion of courtship[/SIZE]

by Kathleen van Schaijik

When I was a freshman I went to a talk on dating, given on campus as part of a "Christian Formation" series. One of the things the speaker said was "Feelings don't really matter. Feelings come and go. What matters is compatibility." I've heard the same idea expressed many other times this way: "Love is not a feeling; it's a decision."

The de-emphasis on "feelings" was a fundamental aspect of a general philosophy of dating promoted on campus (though certainly not shared by all) at the time. Dating was (and still is) regarded by many as "a process of marriage preparation." Singles who truly wanted to "give their love life to God," were taught that they ought not to be dating at all until they were ready to get married, and that then it should be kept to the minimum necessary for finding an appropriate potential spouse and rationally discerning compatibility for marriage. A great deal of stress was put on the need to avoid sexual sin and occasions of sin, as well as on the danger of "going by your emotions." Young men and women were told they should not kiss until they were engaged, and were "challenged" to wait until they were married. ("If you're not going to start the car, why put the key in the ignition?") Older couples were encouraged to "get married as soon as possible" in order to avoid sin. The myster y of love was given very short shrift.

This way of thinking about courtship and dating seems to be on the rise in Christian circles. There are a number of Protestant ministers and teachers today promulgating what they call (very misleadingly, I think) "the biblical approach" to marriage, which they term "courtship" in explicit opposition to the dating scene of the world.[SIZE=-2](1)[/SIZE] Dating, they say, with its pattern of emotional attachments ending in breakups is "preparation for divorce." In courtship, by contrast, "the decision to marry is entered into rationally," without the interference of the emotions and with the express permission and guidance of the parents. The emotions come later, during the betrothal period. "The betrothal period [is] given to allow the emotions to catch up with the decision. The emotions are supposed to follow reason, not lead it." [SIZE=-2](2)[/SIZE] (No distinction is made here between critically different types of emotions, such as between arbitrary sensations and deep spiritual responses.)

I have heard prominent Catholics expound similar ideas recently, including the notion of parental permission to begin courting, no kissing until the wedding day, and the idea that feelings should follow the rational decision to court, not vice versa.[SIZE=-2](3)[/SIZE]

This method of courting has a strong appeal among young Christians, for two main reasons. The first is that it has a very large kernel of truth in it. The dating scene of the world is a disastrous mess. It is almost completely focussed on pleasure and self-gratification. Sexual promiscuity and emotional anguish abound. More and more couples are living together unmarried, more and more marriages are ending in divorce, more hearts are being broken, more lives are being ruined. Serious young Christians are looking desperately for something better and purer--a godly way to get married. And this method promises to provide it.

The second reason for its appeal, I think, is that it so greatly simplifies things for singles. It makes the pre-marriage period manageable. It gives a safe formula for getting through an extremely complex, confusing and peril-fraught time of life. By putting things on a clear, up-front, rational basis, much of the uncertainty and vulnerability that inevitably accompany "affairs of the heart" is eliminated.

The problem with it is that it is drastically lacking the fullness of truth about the mysteries of love and sexuality. And the lack here is not a mere incompleteness--so that if a few additions or adjustments were made, we'd have it in full. Rather, it is the kind of lack that entails a reduction and distortion of reality. And any distortion on the philosophical level is bound to work its way into the practical realm, doing damage in human lives in proportion with the seriousness of the error. (I could give many sorrowful examples here if put to it.)


Love and discernment

Perhaps the prime way it distorts reality is in the way it denigrates the role of love in courtship. In some cases, love is treated as irrelevant or worse, since "emotions" can cloud our judgement.[SIZE=-2](4)[/SIZE] More often, though, the "feelings" that go with courtship are seen to be good and valid, but still incidental to the "discernment process." I can remember very distinctly thinking this way as a freshman and sophomore at FUS--being taught to think this way. If the choice of a spouse was sound, the feelings would click in eventually.

Just last night, reading George Weigel's biography of John Paul II, I was struck by this line: "Love, for Karol Wojtyla, was the truth at the very core of the human condition..." (p.101) Similarly, he saw it as the core of authentic courtship. In the experience of falling in love, Wojtyla shows, the meaning of the universe is mysteriously revealed, and with it the lover's personal vocation: to give myself in love to this other, and to receive the gift of his love for me.[SIZE=-2](5)[/SIZE]

This theme is also stressed repeatedly in the writings of the great Catholic philosopher, Dietrich von Hildebrand.[SIZE=-2](6)[/SIZE] True love between a man and a woman, so far from being a matter of bodily urges or appetites, or of sub-rational, superficial "feelings" needing to be dominated by reason, is a profoundly, a pre-eminently spiritual reality--one that shakes us to the very depths of our being. It is, further, decisively an affective reality, centered in the heart, not the intellect or the will (though it is of course intimately related to both.) Jacob did not labor fourteen years for Rachel's hand because he had "discerned a compatibility" with her, but "because he loved her." (Gen. 29:19-20)

To insist on the centrality of love in courtship, however, is not at all to suggest that discernment has no place. It is vitally necessary; for instance, in helping us to distinguish between authentic love and counterfeits like infatuation or mere sexual attraction, or to decide whether or not this particular love ought to end in marriage, or whether it might be right to marry even in the absence of an intense "inloveness."[SIZE=-2](7)[/SIZE] But, crucial at it is, rational discernment is not the essence of the matter, and if we talk as if it is, we will end by cheating young men and women out of the height of human happiness, and with it the moral power they will need to live out their married lives well.[SIZE=-2](8)[/SIZE]

The objective and subjective dimensions

A second distortion in the above-described courtship method, related to the first, is in its too impersonal or lop-sidedly "objective" treatment of the vocation to marriage. This can be seen in the very idea of making lists of potential spouses, and in the notion of needing parental permission to begin courting.

In Catholic understanding, marriage is a vocation--not just to a general state, but to a particular person. And like a vocation to the religious life, it is based on an intimate, interior call of God. In other words, it is something profoundly subjective[SIZE=-2](9)[/SIZE]--beyond the reach of purely objective judgements and categories.[SIZE=-2](10)[/SIZE] Therefore, it is not fitting for a man who wants to marry to make lists of the qualities he's looking for in a wife, or lists of the various women who attract his interest. This exposes and reinforces an impersonal and de-personalizing view of marriage--as if it didn't really matter whom one marries, as long as she has the right qualities for the role she is to play. It encourages a man to be on the lookout for a "type" rather than for a person--an approach that has devastating consequences, particularly for women.[SIZE=-2](11)[/SIZE]

Neither is it fitting for a couple to put the decision to court or to marry a particular person in the hands of their parents, or any other superior. No matter how much he may have the best interests of his daughter in mind, a parent cannot see into her heart, and is therefore simply unqualified to make that most intimate and ultimate of decisions for her. But, again, to say that the parents should not hold veto power over their adult child's choice to court or marry is not at all to suggest that they do not have an essential role to play in helping their off-spring to court and marry well. A parent's perspective is priceless and irreplaceable.

My own parents never did anything to try to "control" my dating in college. The unspoken understanding was that they had done for me what they could by raising me well, and now it was up to me to live as I thought right.

When I was a sophomore I had a boyfriend--someone I thought of as a great Christian leader and a potential spouse. I was not in love with him, but I expected that would come in due course. One day I asked my Dad, "Would you be happy if I married him?" He hesitated before answering, and in that single instant of fatherly hesitation (which surprised me) all the subtle doubts I had been harboring in my own heart crystallized into certainty: this relationship would never work; he was a great person, but he was all wrong for me. My father's knowledge of me and his broader experience of life allowed him to see it before I did. And my implicit trust in his judgement and his loving concern for my happiness made me see it much sooner than I would have on my own--which spared me (and the boyfriend) a lot of needless heartache.

My parents never had the least hesitation about Jules. But neither would they have picked him for me out of a crowd of potential husbands. Until they saw how we loved one another, they could not have imagined how right he is for me. It was a revelation for them too.

Parents wield an enormous influence over their children. They have a right and a duty to advise their grown sons and daughters, and to bless or withhold their blessing from their "courtship choices," as their loving parental wisdom dictates.[SIZE=-2](12)[/SIZE] But they cannot make those choices for them, and they can do damage if they try.
 
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enelya_taralom

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Dating Pt. 2


A right understanding of human sexuality

The third serious defect of this method of courtship (also related to the first two) is in the way it treats human sexuality. It is not exactly a puritanical treatment, since it grants that sex is good and innocent in the right context, i.e., marriage. But still, it is reductive. When we compare a kiss to "putting a key in the ignition" and "challenge" young people to wait until they are married, we obscure the deepest meaning of human sexuality as the expression of our nature as persons created to give ourselves in love. We reinforce the disastrous misconception that sex is basically the satisfaction of an appetite (designed by God to induce us to marry and reproduce)--a pleasure process that begins with kissing, ends with intercourse and results in children. Since that appetite is so powerful--so the thinking goes--it needs to be strictly controlled until marriage, when according to God's law it may be satisfied without guilt. Therefore, the less we indulge ourselves before marriage, the safer we are. No mention is made of tenderness, romance, reverence, self-donation. Physical intimacy is reduced to sexual foreplay, and sexual morality is to its negative aspect of sin avoidance.

The truth is that a man may refrain from kissing his fiancee until their wedding day and still have an impure attitude toward her, because he views sex as a form of self-indulgence, rather than as a gift-of-self. And another man, who kisses his girlfriend with tenderness, may actually grow in purity as he does so, because he gives her that kiss as a sign and seal of his intention to love her and lay down his life for her. This is what a kiss between a man and a woman is meant to be.

In June of 1987, a year before Jules and I got engaged, Alice von Hildebrand asked me to drive her from New York to Virginia, where I was to take a summer course of hers. Knowing that my own courtship was about to begin, and wanting desperately to do it well, I asked her if she would share her thoughts with me. One of the many wonderful things she said to me that day was: "Reserve intimacy for only the most exceptional moments." It was only a few words, but they managed to encapsulate and communicate a profoundly true and beautiful image of human sexuality (one without any reductive tendencies) that served as a help and inspiration for Jules and me throughout our courtship. Her words were pervaded with profound reverence for the sexual sphere, as well as with a humble awareness of its depth, seriousness and power, and therefore its potential to do great harm if misused. It is the kind of teaching I wish every young couple could receive before they approach courtship. (How much less unhappiness there would be if they did!)

People will say that I am too romantic and idealistic; that the sex-saturated culture of today demands that we get practical with young people if we are going to protect them from sin and devastation. But, I think we give much more genuine help when we teach single men and women reverence, when we hold up for them images that reveal the heart-melting beauty of a pure human love (in place of the obscenity, violence and vulgarity pop-culture bombards them with.) Once they see it, they cannot help but long for it, and, under Grace, aspire to it. Their aching desire for authentic love gives them courage and insight; they begin to recognize intuitively and shrink from the impurity that threatens their chance of attaining it...

I know this was true in my own life, and I know I am not alone.


Feelings and femininity

If I had the space, I would like to develop here one final thought--a background problem attendant on the de-emphasis on feelings. I would like to show how this way of thinking tends in practice to devalue women, because they are generally speaking more "emotional" while men are more "rational." If we see feelings as needing to be dominated by reason, which is superior to them, we will be under psychological pressure to imagine that men are superior to women. We will blind ourselves to the many important ways that, spiritually speaking, the emotions (rightly understood) "lead" reason--because they are deeper and more sensitive. (Recall Pascal's words: "The heart has reasons that the reason does not know.") But that will have to wait for another place. I have already gone way beyond the normal length limits of a Concourse article.



To conclude my critique of this method of courtship, let me say two things. First, that for all its errors it embodies a moral and religious seriousness that are greatly to be admired and infinitely to be preferred over the thoughtless self-centeredness and promiscuity prevailing in the dating scene of the world today. Though it is not the fullness of truth, it can be for many young people what it was for me--namely, a giant step in the right direction. And second, if I fault FUS for sometimes promoting bad ideas about dating, it is also true that it was in philosophy classes there that I first encountered the writings of Von Hildebrand, Wojtyla and Kierkegaard, among others great thinkers about Love (for which I give special thanks to Dean Healy.) Even more, I met Jules at FUS, and FUS provided the backdrop of our courtship. So, when I criticize, I do so only with a very grateful sense of how much I owe my alma mater for what she gave me in the way of love--which is much mor e than I can ever repay. n
Kathleen van Schaijik graduated in 1988. She now lives in Ypsilanti, Michigan, where her husband, Jules (class of '89) teaches philosophy at Ave Maria College. She is currently writing a book on Catholic courtship.
[SIZE=-1]Footnotes:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]1 [/SIZE]A recent article in the NY Times Magazine (2/27/00) about a fundamentalist Christian family (the father of which is studying to become a pastor) sums up this view succinctly: "It goes without saying that they do not approve of premarital sex, but what is a little more surprising is that they do not approve of premarital emotional intimacy either. If a couple are courting, they are supposed to be seriously considering each other as husband and wife, and they are supposed to do so with some overt participation by parents or other elders. Ideally, they should not be alone together, or if they are it ought to be in a public place--a Friendley's, say--where liquor is not served and where they are unlikely to give into temptation."

[SIZE=-1]2 [/SIZE]I have lost the reference here, though I saved the quotations. It was from a pamphlet advertising a series of tapes on this subject by a Protestant minister named Jonathon Livingston, I think.

[SIZE=-1]3 [/SIZE]Some of these principles can be found in Kimberly Hahn's tape series, "Dating and Courtship: A Catholic Perspective" (recorded in Steubenville in 1997, and available through St. Joseph Communications.) But it would be unjust to lump her views on this subject with thoroughly rationalistic approaches. Her tapes give a lot of good practical advice, and they reveal a genuine openness to the fullness of Catholic truth. There is much to be admired in them. For instance, she makes a very clear distinction between the basic self-centeredness of fornication and the self-donation of the marital act. Also she acknowledges the phenomenon of "falling in love," and agrees that marriage is a vocation to love a particular person. Still, I think some aspects of her teaching can be fairly criticized for betraying a rationalistic tendency not completely unsimilar to the method I'm here crititiquing.

[SIZE=-1]4 [/SIZE]I have heard of cases wherein the fact that the man felt no love for the woman he was thinking of marrying was conscientiously disregarded in his "discernment process." (My heart aches for those women.)

[SIZE=-1]5 [/SIZE]This insight, which is the basis of the Pope's profound "theology of the body," is elaborated in his ethical work Love and Responsibility, and very movingly illustrated in his play, The Jeweler's Shop.

[SIZE=-1]6 [/SIZE]See his The Heart, or Man and Woman, or Marriage: the Mystery of Faithful Love.

[SIZE=-1]7 [/SIZE]I am thinking for instance of the case of a widow with small children, who finds a good man who wants to marry her and provide for her and her children. She may sense that it is good and right to marry him, even if she is not madly in love.

[SIZE=-1]8 [/SIZE]Max Scheler has shown that happiness is a source of moral strength in human persons. This is something we experience all the time: when we are happy we are able to do good that is beyond us when we are depressed. The happiness that comes into a person through the experience of loving and being loved is a very vital help in meeting the challenges and demands of married life which might otherwise be crushing.

[SIZE=-1]9 [/SIZE]The term subjective is unfortunately ambiguous, and easily misunderstood. I am by no means advocating subjectivism, which is as different from subjective in my sense as feminism is from feminine. I mean, rather, to follow the Holy Father's use of the term to denote the unique and inscrutable interior plenitude of each individual human soul.

[SIZE=-1]10 [/SIZE]The mysterious subjectivity of this call is stirringly expressed in The Jeweler's Shop. When Andrew, who has just proposed to his future wife says about her: "There must have been something in Teresa that suited my personality. I thought much at the time about the "alter ego". Teresa was a whole world, just as distant as any other man, as any other woman--and yet there was something that allowed one to think of throwing a bridge."

[SIZE=-1]11 [/SIZE]This is material for a whole article in itself. It has many dimensions. One is in the psychological dynamics that come into play. A single woman who wants to be married will feel pressured to conform to an artificial ideal of wifeliness. She might be depressed at how little she measures up to it, at how many younger, prettier women there are who are better representatives of it than she. In a desperate effort to appear attractive as a potential wife, she will try hard to appear to be what she is not, even though it makes her feel phony and fills her with despair... A married woman, after the initial thrill of being a wife wears off and hardships begin to crop up, might experience a demoralizing doubt that her husband loves her. "Did he marry me for me, or did he marry me for my home-making skills?" She starts to feel "objectified," used. A pitiable longing to be loved as a person may drive her to do terrible things, such as unconsciously suppress her "positive attributes" in order to test her husband--to see whether his love for her really goes to the heart of who she is. (The worst thing a husband can do in this circumstance is rebuke his wife or "call her on" for not fulfilling her wifely duties.) But this is not the right place for developing this point.

[SIZE=-1]12 [/SIZE]That wisdom may in some circumstances suggest prudential action. For instance, if parents fear that their freshman daughter has gotten involved in a very destructive relationship, they may decide not to continue paying her tuition to the college her boyfriend attends. In a very serious case, such a measure might well be justified, even called for.


[SIZE=-1]R[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]elated Articles:[/SIZE]
� [SIZE=-1]A Catholic critique of a current notion of courtship, Kathleen van Schaijik (V,7)[/SIZE]
� [SIZE=-1]Reforming our thinking about courtship and sexuality, William Craig (V,8)[/SIZE]
� [SIZE=-1]Thank you, thank you!, Catherine Egan (V,8)[/SIZE]
� [SIZE=-1]The influence of Puritanism, Jeff Zare (V,8)[/SIZE]
 
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rppearso

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It does not make sence to be dating someone for over 5 years. At that point you are just friends, becasue the only difference between a best friend and a wife is sex. I am all for the short engagement before marriage, just enough time to plan a simple marriage. I guess everyone is different but I think its pretty easy to find out in a few months (if you spend enough time together) if you are right for each other.
 
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enelya_taralom

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It does not make sence to be dating someone for over 5 years. At that point you are just friends, becasue the only difference between a best friend and a wife is sex. I am all for the short engagement before marriage, just enough time to plan a simple marriage. I guess everyone is different but I think its pretty easy to find out in a few months (if you spend enough time together) if you are right for each other.

Whoa!

I should hope that there is a much greater difference between your wife and your best friend than sex. For one, it would be rather hard to descern whether or not "you're right for eachother" if you see no difference between her and another friend. Why even bother marry her? Why not the best friend (assuming she's female)? Each one of us is created unique and with dignity as a creation of God. Seeing no difference between the woman you marry and other besides your physical relationship with her, nullifies the fact that she sia unique and unrepeatable creation. When we choose a life partner it should be because we see something in them that makes us want to share our lives with them. It should be because we love him or her.

Theology of the Body: Talk 6: Authentic Chastity


From Legalism to Liberty

1. Chastity & Sexual Freedom

How often is chastity considered something negative- a long list of oppressive "thou shalt nots"?
  • Remember, Christ didn't come to give us more rules to follow (legalism).
  • Christ came to transform our hearts so we would no longer need the rules (liberty).
  • Mature chastity is not oppressive legalism, but true sexual liberation!
1a. "Chastity is very often understood as... one long 'no.' Whereas it is above all the 'yes' of which certain 'no's' are the consequence" (LR,170).


Society talks a lot about "sexual freedom." But this typically refers to unrestrained indulgence.
  • Is an alcoholic who cannot say "no" to his next drink free?
  • Society's concept of sexual freedom actually promotes addiction- bondage to lust.
  • True freedom is liberation not from the external "constraint" that calls me to good, but from the internal constraint that hinders my choice of the good.
1b. "The virtuous man is he who freely practices the good" (CCC, n.1804).


1c. Those bound by lust "experience God's law as a burden, and indeed as... a restriction of their own freedom. On the other hand, those who are impelled by love... feel an interior urge... not to stop at the minimum demands of the Law, but to live them in their 'fullness.' This is a still uncertain and fragile journey as long as we are on earth, but it is one made possible by grace" (VS, n.18).


1d. Grace is that mysterious gift made to the human "heart" which frees men and women to become a sincere gift to eachother (see TB, 68).


2. The "Personalistic Norm"


The guiding principle of moral teaching is the dignity of the human person. John Paul II calls this guiding principle the "personalistic norm."


2a. This norm, in its negative form, states that persons must never be treated as objects of use, as merely a means to an end. In its positive form the personalistic norm affirms that love is the only proper attitude towards a person (see LR, p.41).


What is love? Is love a feeling? A physical attraction? An emotion?


2b. Emotions, feelings and physical attraction "constitute only the 'raw material' of love. There exists a tendency to regard them as its finished form" (LR, 139). These "components, if they are not [properly] held together... may add up not to love, but to its direct opposite" (LR, 146).


2c. "Sometimes, what is called... 'love,' if subjected to searching critical examination turns out to be, contrary to all appearances, only a form of 'utilization' of the person" (LR, 167).


2d. Lust impels people very powerfully towards physical intimacy. But if this grows out of nothing more than lust, it is not love. On the contrary it is a negation of love (see LR, 150-151).


2e. Authentic love does not say: "I long for you as a good" but "I long for your good," "I long for that which is good for you." The person who truly loves longs for this with no ulterior motive, no selfish consideration. This is the purest form of love and it brings the greatest fulfillment (see LR, 83-84).


3. Chastity & the Integration of Love


For love to take root, above all we must firmly set our will on the person's good, utterly refusing to indulge lust. But this does not mean we "stuff" or ignore our emotions and attractions.
  • What's needed is integration of emotion and attraction withthe dignity of the person.
  • This is the role of the virtue of chastity.
3a. "Chastity can only be thought of in association with the virtue of love. Its function is to free love from the utilitarian attitude." It must control "those centers deep down within the human being in which the utilitarian attitude is hatched and grows" (LR, 169, 170).


3b. The essence of chastity consists in quickness to affirm the value of the person in every situation, and in raising to the personal level all reactions to a person's body and sex. It is not a matter of "annihilating" sexual reactions or pushing them into the subconscious where they await an opportunity to explode. Chastity is a matter of sustained long term integration of sexual values with the value of the person (see LR, 170-171).


3c. "The person [who wants] to suceed on mastering [sexual] impluse and excitement, must be committed to a progressive education in self control of the will, of the feelings, of the emotions; and this education must develop beginning with the most simple acts in which it is relatively easy tp put the interior decision into practice" (TB, 408).


4. Chaste Love Recognizes the "Unrepeatability" of the Person


Love reaches maturity when it turns from how the other makes me feel to who the other person is.
  • Every person is totally unique and "unrepeatable."
  • No person can ever be compared to another, measured by, or replaced by another.
Authentic love is attracted not just by "attributes" or "qualities" of a person that light a "spark."
  • Qualities are repeatable- they can always be found in others and to a higher degree.
  • If love stops here, a permanent shadow is cats over the permanency of relationship.
4a. "Only the value of the person can sustain a stable relationship. The other values of sexuality are wasted away by time and are exposed to the danger of disillusion. But this is not the case for the value of the person,... which is stable and in some way infinite. When love develops and reaches the person, then it is forever" (KW, 100).


The person who is the object of lust gradually realizes the sentiment of the other:
  • "You don't need me. You don't desire me. You desire only a means of gratification."
  • Far from feeling loved and affirmed as a unique and unrepeatable person, those objectified by lust feel used and debased as a repeatable commodity.
4b. We often experience sexual stimuli offering equally or more seductive possibilities of new sexual relationships. If the person I "love" is only an instrument for my own pleasure, then he or she can easily be replaced in such a function, a fact which casts a permanent shadow of doubt over the relationship. The case is different when love reaches the person. Then the other is loved not for the quality that he or she has (and which one can lose or which others could have in a higher degree) but for his or her own sake. Only then is their living together something more than the joining of two selfish individuals, and capable of achieving a real personal unity (see KW, 102).



5. Ask & You Shall Receive


5a. "I thought that [chastity] arose from one's own powers, which I did not recognize in myself. I was foolish enough not to know... that no one can be [chaste] unless You grant it. For You would surely have granted it if my inner groaning had reached Your ears and I with firm faith had cast my cares on you" (St. Augustine, CCC, n.2520).


Ask and you shall receive. What father among you, if his son asks for a fish will give him a serpent? How much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him (see LK 11:9-13)?


Heavenly Father, we ask your forgivness for ever doubting your love for us, for ever thinking that turning from your plans for our lives, for our sexuality, would somehow bring us happiness. Recognizing our own weaknesses, with bold confidence we ask you for the gift of a chaste heart. Pour out your life and your love on each of us gathered here. Set our desires aright. Teach us to love as you love. Amen.




Study Questions- Talk #6 Authentic Chastity: From Legalism to Liberty
  1. What is the positive meaning of chastity? Who does this term apply to?
  2. What is the difference between society's definition of "sexual freedom" and the freedom spoken of in this talk?
  3. Often times what is perceived as 'love' is actually 'lust,' especially in today's media. Articulate the traits of each. Discuss how lust can so easily be disguised as love.
  4. What is the difference between legitimate passionate love ("eros") and lust?
  5. What does it mean when we say that each person is "unrepeatable"?
  6. Memorise the "personalistic norm", that we may be reminded to always uphold the dignity of each human person.
For more see:

Created and Redeemed (DVD) : [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]An Eight-Part Adult Faith Formation Program Based on Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. This eight-talk presentation on the Theology of the Body offers a more thorough treatment than the Introductory Series. This series will help deepen your understanding of God's Plan for marriage and human sexuality.[/FONT]

Encyclical Letter: "Deus Caritas Est"/"God is Love" by Pope Benedict XVI : An examination of the question "what is love" through consideration of the different kinds of love and how each applies to the Christian life.

Purity in an Impure Age: Discovering God's Glorious Plan for Sexuality: What is Christian purity? More than likely, it is not what you think. Purity is not Puritanism. Nor is it prudishness. These approaches to the body and sexuality actually flow from impurity. Christian purity is the ability to see the mystery of God revealed through the body and sexuality. Available in CD, DVD, VHS and cassette format.

Book: Good News About Sex and Marriage This easy-to-read, question-and-answer book by Christopher West offers a fresh, relevant, and convincing presentation of the Church's teachings on human sexuality and marriage.
 
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Gardener101

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How far can you go without a marriage licence? It would be really nice if the Bible said "with thy lips together thou may kiss, but with thy lips parted thou shalt not kiss" or "above the waist you shall touch freely, but below the waist you shall not touch." Because such detailed limits are not given some will suggest that God does not care if we slip a hand under a blouse, up a skirt, or into a pair of pants. It is increasingly common for Christians to believe, and even teach others, that as long as the penis does not enter the vagina, it's "not sex." Why didn't God spell it out for us in the Bible? Actually we think He did, but because we are products of the society we live in we don't see it. Up until very recently it was commonly accepted that stimulating the breasts or genitals directly or indirectly WAS SEX. In the days before reliable birth control many prostitutes made a living doing everything but intercourse. So when Paul says "Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her?" (1 Co 16a NKJV) those who read it would not have thought he was referring only to intercourse, but to any and all of the ways a prostitute of the day would pleasure a man. Even married couples might regularly resort to sex without intercourse in order to not conceive. So perhaps our failure to understand that things like oral sex and petting to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] are unacceptable outside of marriage is our fault, not God's.

We will begin by making a few of the Biblical cases against premarital sex and "playing around." Then will look at some scientific and experience based reasons why it's a very bad plan to push sexual boundaries.


The Word says ...

In the seventh chapter of first Corinthians, Paul says a lot about sex and marriage. He begins by saying it's good for a man to "not touch" a woman. Paul knew those who were unmarried could better server the Lord, and wanted those who could abstain to not marry. But look at the word Paul used - "touch". The same Greek word is used repeatedly when Jesus touched people to heal them, and it means "to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to". The word is intimate, but not inherently sexual. It sure seems that Paul was concerned about more than just sexual intercourse - he seems to be excluding all intimate contact between unmarried men and women.
In verse 2 Paul says that we should marry in order to avoid "fornication." The Greek word there is "Porneia," and it means far more than the English word fornication. The best translation would be "immoral sexuality" and this would include adultery, premarital sex, homosexuality, and even bestiality. Paul's solution for dealing with sexual desires was to get married and have sex (a LOT of sex actually). Given his desire to see folks not marry, this is significant. If some sort of "foreplay to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]" could deal with a persons sexual needs and leave them unmarried, don't you think Paul would have advocated it? But in addition to the fact that this behavior is wrong, it leads to, rather than prevents, marriage.

Finally, let's jump down to verse 36-38, where Paul talks about a man and "his virgin." Some have said these verses are about a man's virgin daughter, others say it's about a man who is betrothed to a virgin, but not yet married. Verse 38 can be read either way (compare the NASB and the RSV for example). Consider that in verse 36 we have a question about the man "behaving improperly" towards the virgin. If we dig into the Greek roots for the word translated as "behaving improperly" we see it can mean "indecent." We also read about "need" in verse 36, and the man's self control in verse 37. All of these show that the issue is the man's self control over his own sexuality, and this would mean the verses are about a man who has chosen a wife, but has not yet married. Again, the only solution offered for sexual needs is marriage. Clearly Paul did not think it was acceptable to have sex, any kind of sex, just because a couple was engaged.


Logic says ...

Still, how do we draw a Godly line about what we can and can not do with a man or woman to whom we are not married? Read that question again - "to whom we are not married." If a married man, rubbed on the crotch of a woman's jeans other than his wife, would it be sin? Is it likely the wife would say "It's okay, it's not sex"? And if the wife performed oral sex on some man other than her husband, would he be wrong to be upset because "it's not sex?" Clearly these examples are cases of sexual sin! If it's sexual sin for a married person to do these things with another, then how can it not be sexual, or not be sin, for two single people to do these things? Why would it be alright to do these things with anyone we feel close to while we are single, but not after we marry?


Science says ...
The idea that necking, petting, and oral sex are not "really sex" can also be dispelled by looking at the biology of sex. Sexual interaction has profound effects on our bodies and minds. Sexual arousal causes our bodies to increase production of pheromones (think air borne hormones) from the upper lip, the underarms, and the genitals in both men and women, and the navel and aureole (the area around the nipple) in women. These pheromones are so powerful that 20 minutes of exposure to a man's pheromones can alter a woman's menstrual cycle. Exposure to sexual pheromones effects how we think and feel about the person we are with, causing us to bond with them. In marriage this sex induced bonding is a good thing, but outside of marriage it can be a very bad thing. Sex, including sexual contact far short of intercourse, clouds our ability to make intelligent, rational decisions about the person we are being sexual with. Sexual contact causes us to feel closer to the person we are sexual with, and this can and does result in marriages that are doomed to fail. It is better and wiser to make life long decisions about marriage without sex making it impossible to see and think clearly.


Real live experience says ...

Setting all of that above aside for a moment, the best reason we give for a single person to say away from anything even remotely sexual is because we have seen the results of sexual contact before marriage.

Our sexuality is like a white board - but we write on it with permanent markers. All of the sexual messages we get from our culture make marks on that white board, but because of how God created us the things we experience while highly aroused make larger marks, and the things we experience along with [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] make the very largest of marks. Again, this is a good thing in marriage - what we do with our spouse gets written down and becomes a part of what we want, expect, and enjoy. But what if we have sexual contact with several individuals before we marry? The first person we are with leaves a lot of marks on us, and we want and expect sex to be however it was with them. Each new partner leaves more marks on us. Soon our white board is unreadable, and our sexual expectations and desires are a mess.
What if the person you marry can't do that "special thing" a former partner did? What if your spouse can't do something you like as well as the last person you were sexual with? What if you have come to enjoy and be aroused by the way a certain partner's body part looked or felt, and your spouse does not look or feel this way? What if the man or woman you marry finds something you have come to enjoy and want to be gross? Or what if they "need" something that you don't like because of a bad experience with another person?
What if you wait until you are sure you are with the one you are going to marry? This avoids some of the problems, but not all of them. Unmarried couples don't have the same regular contact and opportunities that married couples have, and this means their sex life will not be the same as it will be when the do marry. There is the problem of habituation - becoming so used to doing something a certain way that you can't do it any other way. As an extreme example, one couple we've talked with engaged in "dry humping" to mutual [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] before marriage. When they did marry they found very little enjoyment in being naked together, and both of them found it difficult to be aroused or [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during intercourse. The had become so used to the only kind of sex they knew that intercourse was difficult and not enjoyable.
But the dangers of sexual contact before marriage with the one we marry go far beyond setting up patterns. Talk to 100 women who "messed around" before marriage a year after the wedding and at least 95% will say they wish they had not done it. In theory these women should be able to repent and go on, but in practice it usually results in guilt, resentment, and sexual difficulties. Couples married for many years often trace long term sexual problems to the fact that they did not wait till after the wedding to become sexual.


Women who felt coerced say ...

We think a major part of this is that most women really don't want to be sexual before they marry. Sure, their bodies are pushing them for it, and they may get some pleasure out of it (although many do not), but most of them know deep down inside that it's just not right. So why are so many "good Christian girls" so easily persuaded to go at least "part way?" Because they don't think they have a choice. These young women have learned that many of their brothers in Christ will not continue to date a girl who does not "put out." There are exceptions, but the sad reality is that many men who say they follow Jesus want and expect to be taken to climax by a woman they are "serious" about. The perception is that a woman has very little chance of getting married is she does not give out some free samples. If the choice is "let him feel me up" or "stay home every Friday and Saturday night," you can see why a young lady might allow something she does not want to do. If the choice is "take care of him with my hand" or "still be single at thirty" you can see why a woman might do something she does not want to do.
There is a second problem that goes hand in hand with this. Because she is doing something she does not want to do, the young lady is likely to feel she cannot say no to anything. So she not only does what she feels is wrong as a single woman, she also does things she finds distasteful - things she would not want to do even if she were married. This creates a great deal of resentment in the woman, and this resentment will be vented on her husband after she marries. And once she is married, the woman may decide to stop doing things she just does not like. This leads to resentment in the husband, who feels like he has been the victim of "bait and switch."


Don't believe what the world says ...

We know it's difficult for teens and young adults to not be sexual. Most will have to deal with a full blown adult sex drive for more than a decade before they marry. It seems that "everyone is doing it" and it seems that if you don't do it now you will miss the best sex of your life. Let's dispel the myth that sex is for the young. We talk to others our age, 40-something, who agree that it is still getting better every year. We have also talked to a 70-something semi-retired pastor who says he and his wife are still going strong ... almost nightly! Please don't think you have to start having sex now because the best sexual years of your life are passing you by - it just is not so! You have decades of sexual pleasure ahead of you IF you don't mess it up by jumping the gun.


Paul (not that one) says ...

One thing that I, Paul, have leaned to do when seeking information from anyone from a doctor to a mechanic, is to ask the person I'm talking to what they would do if they were in my position. So in closing let me to tell you what my understanding and experience would have me do if I were single. I would not "French kiss" a woman until she was my wife. I'm not saying it's sinful to French kiss outside of marriage, but I know that the way I was created means this activity results in strong sexual arousal, a great deal of temptation, and a bonding that is unwise outside of marriage. The first time I kissed a woman on the lips would be when she said "yes" to my proposal of marriage. I would make a point of never being alone enough to have sex with any woman I liked. Once I knew for sure that God wanted me to marry a woman, there would be a very short engagement.

We see it this way: you have two sex lives, the one before you marry and the one after you marry. Everything you do in your premarital sex life will have an impact on your married sex life - and the impact is never positive. It's a gamble, and the odds are stacked against you. Sex in marriage can be a wonderful thing, don't destroy it before you even get to try it. We have never had a couple tell us they are sorry they waited, and have had some tell us how glad they are to have waited. On the other hand we have heard over and over from couples who wish they had been completely inexperienced on their wedding night. What sex play before marriage can get you is nothing compared to what it can cost you. It's like having a million dollar trust fund you can't touch until you marry - and agreeing to trade it all for a thousand dollars right now.


Sincerely,

Paul & Lori (Mr & Mrs)
 
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livin4thelord8

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Paul and Lori,
Wow! I am in awe. If it's alright with you I'm copying and printing off that post and reading it every chance I get. My SO and I have made some mistakes and not a day goes by that I worry what consequences will be there when/if we get married. We were both previously married and maybe it's just an excuse, but sometimes it seems hard for us to remember that we can't do things with eachother, though we love eachother so much, that we did with our spouses. Like I said, maybe it's just an excuse. But we feel very strongly about no sex before marriage. Sometimes I wish we were just both ready for marriage now (not just for the intimacy part...I miss being a wife and would love to be his and share all the awesome things married couples get to share...both the highs and the lows) but don't think we are. What do you suggest for those who have stretched the boundaries...I would hate to cause problems for us when/if we get married. Thanks so much for the insight. I don't know about everyone else...but it made so much sense to me. God bless you two!
 
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