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Approaches to Eschatology

Biblewriter

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Matthew 24:34 ?
We have already been over this. Yes, Dispensationalists believe this statement, just as it stands in the text of scripture.
 
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food4thought

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and what about

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened [70 AD]

Hi Erik. Welcome to the discussion! I think the resolution to that verse is found in it's immediate context.

The question is:

What generation is Jesus referring to?​

One possible answer is found in Matthew 24:32-33:

Matthew 24:32-34 NASB "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; (33) so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. (34) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.​

The generation that sees "all these things" begin to take place may be the one that will not pass away until "all these things" comes to pass. This could be the generation that Jesus is speaking of.

Given the fact that Jesus' 2nd coming is mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31, the events around 70 AD cannot fulfill "all these things". BUT, I will concede that the fall of Jerusalem to Titus is prophesied in Matthew 24. Jesus was asked three questions:

1) When will these things (the destruction of the Temple) take place?​

This is obviously 70 AD.

2) And what will be the signs of your coming?​

This is obviously His 2nd coming.

3) And what will be the signs of the end of the age?​

Again, His 2nd coming.

So we see that the prophecy answers 3 questions, 2 of which are interrelated, and Jesus is not clear on distinguishing which question He is answering at any given point.

Hope this helps;
Michael
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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It is an escape from Judea which would protect the 1st century Jewish Christians from the wrath by the Roman army.............
Do you view Daniel 12 and Luke 21 as the same event?

4422 malat a primitive root;
(by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causatively, to release or rescue; specifically, to bring forth young, emit sparks:--deliver (self), escape......

Daniel 12:1
‘And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape<4422>, every one who is found written in the book.

Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet ye may perceiving/seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies, then be knowing that is nigh the desolating of Her...[Revelation 18:19]
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land/Judea and wrath upon this people.

36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape<1628> from all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

1628. ekpheugo from 1537 and 5343;
to flee out:--escape, flee.


.
 
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Biblewriter

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The Greek word translated "escape" in Luke 21:36 is "ekphugein." This word most certaainly does not even imply either strength or passing through. It literally means "to be out fleeing." it is a form of "epheugo," which literally means "escape" or "flee."
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The pre 70ad Jews were futurists, the post 70ad Jews would be preterists..........
One example would be Israel's PM saying Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled during the Holocaust of WW2. Fascinating!

Prophecies of Ezekiel 37

That still leaves this prophecy to be fulfilled for Israel and the Jews:

EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA"

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,

19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnaceto blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.

21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.

22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’


.
 
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claninja

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No, all of these absolutely require their adherents to assume that most of Bible prophecy simply does not mean what it explicitly says.

So because there some aspects of the Bible that I disagree with your interpretation of, I should assume you don't believe that part of the Bible?

What a terrible, subjective argument that would be if I actually believed that.

There can be no escape from this indisputable fact.

you haven't stated a fact
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Thanks. I generally try to look at most greek words in a verse to see how they are used in other verses....

Luk 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee<5343>pheugō> from the being about wrath to come?
Mat 23:33
“Serpents, brood of vipers!
How can you flee<5343>pheugō> from the judging of the gehenna?
Mat 24:16
“then let those who are in Judea flee<5343>pheugō> to the mountains.
Mar 13:14
“then let those who are in Judea flee<5343>pheugō> to the mountains.
Luk 21:21
“Then let those who are in Judea flee<5343>pheugō> to the mountains,

Rev 16:20
Then every island fled away
<5343>pheugō>, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away<5343>pheugō>.
And there was found no place for them.


.
 
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claninja

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The generation that sees "all these things" begin to take place may be the one that will not pass away until "all these things" comes to pass. This could be the generation that Jesus is speaking of.

A generation does not last 2000 years. So how could the same generation that saw the fall of the temple in 70Ad, see the coming of the son of man, and the consummation of the age?

1) When will these things (the destruction of the Temple) take place? This is obviously 70 AD.

Agree, as history clearly shows that the temple was leveled by the roman's within Jesus' audience's generation, just as Jesus prophesied.

2) And what will be the signs of your coming?
This is obviously His 2nd coming.
James, and inspired author, wrote that the coming of the Lord was at hand

James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Notice Matthew records that when ALL these things are seen by the 1st century generation, they would know that he is at the gate.

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

Notice James stated that the judge was standing (present tense) at the gate, thus James must have seen the signs given by Jesus.

James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the gate.


3) And what will be the signs of the end of the age? Again, His 2nd coming.

The end of the ages occurred at the close of old covenant judiasm

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Paul believed he was living at the end of the ages

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

The author of Hebrews states Jesus did away with sin at the end of the age

Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

peter believed the end was at hand


1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand;

John stated it was the last hour


1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

So we see that the prophecy answers 3 questions, 2 of which are interrelated, and Jesus is not clear on distinguishing which question He is answering at any given point.

All 3 gospels record the questions asked by the disciples. Therefore, Mark 13:4 = Matthew 24:3 = Luke 21:7. And as shown above, the authors of the NT believed Jesus was coming within their own generation at the end of the age. Why? because Jesus told them so (Matthew 24:34).

mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

Matthew 24:3 “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:7 Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
 
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BABerean2

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We are well aware of all of these scriptures, and we ignore none of them. But we totally reject the interpretation that you place upon them.

Why then have you failed to explain your interpretation of the passages, instead of ignoring them?

Does the word "now" in Dispensational Theology mean something different?


.
 
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Tutorman

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This is basically saying that roughly a fourth to a fifth of everything God has bothered to tell us is not important.

No, it is basically saying worrying about all he stuff is silly. He will be back when He is ready until then we should live a Christian
 
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parousia70

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claninja touched on this but it bears repeating.

James, writing under the infallible inspiration of the Holy spirit in the late 50s AD recognized Jesus coming was, at that time, "near, and at the door". James 5:8-9

Jesus explicitly said His coming would ONLY be "near and at the door" AFTER certain signs were seen.

Now, either James saw the signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24, and was correct to profess that the coming of the lord was at that time "near and at the door" or James was wrong and was teaching AGAINST what Jesus taught.

Which do you think it was?
 
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keras

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Unfortunately your, and all the 'rapturists here, interpretation of Luke 21:36 as an 'escape' away from, even to heaven, cannot be correct, as the just previous verse plainly states this disaster will come upon everyone the whole world over. My REBible translates it correctly for that reason.
As well as the dozens of prophesies that tell us the Lord will protect His own through that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus

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Luke, James and Peter writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit

Luke 21:
20 - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh<1448>.
28 - And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.<1448>

James 5:8

be patient! ye also; establish! your hearts,
because the parousia of the Lord hath drawn nigh<1448>;
.
1 Peter 4:7
And of all things the end hath come nigh<1448>;
be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
32 - Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh<1451>
33 - So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near<1451> even at the doors.
Mark 13:
28 - Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near<1451>
29 - So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh<1451> even at the doors.
Luke 21:
30 - When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh <1451>.
31 - So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh<1451>

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been Written,
for the Time is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
For the Time Is-nigh<1451>




.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Yes. As Scripture clearly states. Whatever is the correct interpretation of parables such as that of the figure tree. They all applied to Jesus' immediate audience in the first century AD.

Whatever Jesus meant it already happened 2000 years ago. As the Gospels of Matthew and Luke say in agreement.
 
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Erik Nelson

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The Bible was written for all generations. But only to. Jesus' own generation in the first century AD.
 
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Marilyn C

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Hi claninja,

The Revelation of Jesus is the Revelation of HIM. And we see that unfold very soon after that statement - re when the Lord revealed Himself in all His glory to John on the island of Patmos. Then we see four presentations of the Lord, revelations of the Lord throughout the book.

1. Christ the Head of the Body. (ch. 1 - 3)
2. Christ the Heir of the World. (Ch. 4 - 7)
3. Christ the Mediator of the Covenant. (ch. 8 - 13)
4. Christ the Judge and maker of all things new. (ch. 14 - 22)

All revelation OF THE GLORIFIED LORD JESUS CHRIST.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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The Bible was written for all generations. But only to. Jesus' own generation in the first century AD.

Hi Erik,

The Central theme of God`s word is Christ Himself and when He ascended He sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Body of Christ into all Truth. And that truth concerns our generation as well. God`s purposes span the centuries and include the centuries.

regards, Marilyn.
 
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keras

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So you are the arbiter of whether much of what Jesus said doesn't apply to us?
How do you draw the line for that?
No; I totally reject that concept; ALL of what Jesus said that was recorded, is for our instruction and has some application to us today.
Matthew 24:34 is an example, it is for the generation that sees the fig tree bud. That is Judah, represented by the fig tree, returning to the Land and prospering.
The generation alive when Jesus was there, were all killed or sold into slavery.

Preterism such as you believe in, simply leaves you in the dark about what God has planned for our future.
 
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Erik Nelson

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The Bible was written for all time. The New Testament. Was given to Early first century Christians.

In other words, the Bible was written for us, but not to us. We are reading somebody else's mail so to speak.

Matthew 24 verse 34. is? Very clear. Jesus told the people listening to him. In March or April of thirty ad. That their generation would live to witness all of the. Apocalyptic events, he had just described. According to Josephus. They did.
 
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