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Appeals Option Forum

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Please forgive me if this suggestion is a bit late...but after some prayer and thought, here is the idea.

Make Appeals optional for public viewing. Obviously no one but the Member filing the Appeal and Mods handling the Appeal in the Chain of Command would be allowed to respond. This would eliminate the question of secrecy and allow no room for doubt in the application of rule enforcement.

Furthermore, this would be a great learning tool for all CF members who are unsure about how some rules are violated.

Overall the Mods have a tremendous responsibility and it cannot be an easy job by anyones' standards. Thank you to all who so freely dedicate your time and effort to CF!
 
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Chrysalis Kat

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I have always supported this idea. I would like for the appealing member to have the option of making their appeals public information or not. Presently, the appeal process is extremely unbalanced and set up for the benefit of staff, not the member.
Actually, the entire appeal process needs to be overhauled. I think Erwin is well aware of this.
 
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Chrysalis Kat said:
I have always supported this idea. I would like for the appealing member to have the option of making their appeals public information or not. Presently, the appeal process is extremely unbalanced and set up for the benefit of staff, not the member.
Actually, the entire appeal process needs to be overhauled. I think Erwin is well aware of this.

Thanks for your input...my kitty says hello. :wave:
 
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seebs

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I think that, in an appeal, the user's expectation of privacy is a good thing.

But if I, as the person with a right to privacy, wish to waive it, this should also be possible.

There are certainly cases in which the substance of a complaint or appeal is such that I'd want to keep it private with staff. However, in many cases, I would have no reason to do so. In such cases, I would rather other users be able to see my question, and its answer, so we can all better understand how the moderators understand the rules.

If I don't understand a rule, it's entirely possible other people will have the same misunderstanding; a public response that clarifies it is then a huge win for everybody.
 
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seebs said:
I think that, in an appeal, the user's expectation of privacy is a good thing.

But if I, as the person with a right to privacy, wish to waive it, this should also be possible.

There are certainly cases in which the substance of a complaint or appeal is such that I'd want to keep it private with staff. However, in many cases, I would have no reason to do so. In such cases, I would rather other users be able to see my question, and its answer, so we can all better understand how the moderators understand the rules.

If I don't understand a rule, it's entirely possible other people will have the same misunderstanding; a public response that clarifies it is then a huge win for everybody.

Excellent points, and I have run into problems where I received OWs even after I read the rules to make sure my posts were not in violation. The point of saying this is to say had there been a Forum for Public Appeals it is highly possible I could have seen the same mistakes by others thereby avoiding the rule violations and the OWs.
 
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Jenda said:
I know that I have not understood the appeals process, and therefore botched appeals, but I am not for this suggestion one bit.

Sorry.

No need to apologize because I am more than willing to listen to thoughts, especially those that oppose the idea.

If it wouldn't be too much trouble, why would this be a bad option?

Thank you
 
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A New Dawn

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Neverstop said:
No need to apologize because I am more than willing to listen to thoughts, especially those that oppose the idea.

If it wouldn't be too much trouble, why would this be a bad option?

Thank you
I don't know of a lot of people who are willing to air their dirty laundry in public. You talk about viewing other people's appeals, but your's would also be open for viewing. Is that OK with you?

(It's not with me.)
 
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Jenda said:
I don't know of a lot of people who are willing to air their dirty laundry in public. You talk about viewing other people's appeals, but your's would also be open for viewing. Is that OK with you?

(It's not with me.)

That's why the crucial point of this is that it would be strictly optional for the Member filing the appeal. For those who choose to keep it quiet, they may do so. I have 3 that I would love to see in a public forum.

The more I realize that the only secret is that there are no secrets, the less I tend to be concerned about people rifling through my dirty laundry. :)

Thanks for your feedback.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Neverstop said:
No need to apologize because I am more than willing to listen to thoughts, especially those that oppose the idea.

If it wouldn't be too much trouble, why would this be a bad option?

Thank you

Since you ask why this may be a bad option:
I'm a firm believer that if misdeeds are done, then in God's Sovereignty and timing, those misdeeds will be exposed in a proper manner.

As far as having public appeals, I see it as having potential harm in being open to gossip and preconceived if not superficial impressions given to the viewer. Granted those are aspects that are dependent on the viewer, however making a feature where only claims were held against people invites those given to such to frequent it. You may have no qualms of 'airing your laundry'; however, creating a formal arena where people are privy to your or other's situation sets up for further moderation efforts if or when such incidents are 'brought up' again out of that arena i.e. "Wasn't it you that got reprimanded for..." and thus, the moderators will have to further enforce the no publicly discussing moderator actions.

The only cause I can see that would warrant this addition would be popular opinion pressure and second-guessing moderator actions. I post here under the trust and consent by the forum and that sentiment is reciprocated.
Terms by which I agreed to as is.

IMHO
 
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A New Dawn

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Neverstop said:
That's why the crucial point of this is that it would be strictly optional for the Member filing the appeal. For those who choose to keep it quiet, they may do so. I have 3 that I would love to see in a public forum.

The more I realize that the only secret is that there are no secrets, the less I tend to be concerned about people rifling through my dirty laundry. :)

Thanks for your feedback.
The OP did not state that this would be optional. If that is part of your intended suggestion, then it should be stated.
 
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Jenda said:
The OP did not state that this would be optional. If that is part of your intended suggestion, then it should be stated.

From the first line in the 2nd paragrah:

Neverstop said:
Make Appeals optional for public viewing.


Maybe there was a better way to state it, but it seemed clear when I wrote it.
 
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ChristianCenturion said:
Since you ask why this may be a bad option:
I'm a firm believer that if misdeeds are done, then in God's Sovereignty and timing, those misdeeds will be exposed in a proper manner.

As far as having public appeals, I see it as having potential harm in being open to gossip and preconceived if not superficial impressions given to the viewer. Granted those are aspects that are dependent on the viewer, however making a feature where only claims were held against people invites those given to such to frequent it. You may have no qualms of 'airing your laundry'; however, creating a formal arena where people are privy to your or other's situation sets up for further moderation efforts if or when such incidents are 'brought up' again out of that arena i.e. "Wasn't it you that got reprimanded for..." and thus, the moderators will have to further enforce the no publicly discussing moderator actions.

The only cause I can see that would warrant this addition would be popular opinion pressure and second-guessing moderator actions. I post here under the trust and consent by the forum and that sentiment is reciprocated.
Terms by which I agreed to as is.

IMHO

I agree that all misdeeds will be revealed in God's timing, but God uses people to get things done all the time. (Not saying I am being used for that at all.)

It seems the base of your argument is that making an appeal process public (strictly by the permission of the one making the appeal) will exacerbate tension among the CF community. If I have misunderstood the argument please correct me.

My response is since the goal of CF is unity, the aspect of transparency on rule enforcement will release a lot of tension and remove any doubts people may have. These doubts may or may not be warranted, I am not here to argue or discuss that.

Even without this option, many people can see what posts have been staff edited mainly by the absence of a post, so I am not swayed by the argument it would deepen the pool of animosity.

I appreciate your feedback, even though we may disagree. :)
 
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A New Dawn

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Neverstop said:
From the first line in the 2nd paragrah:

[/size]

Maybe there was a better way to state it, but it seemed clear when I wrote it.
Oh. Sorry, I interpreted that differently. :sorry:
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Neverstop said:
It seems the base of your argument is that making an appeal process public (strictly by the permission of the one making the appeal) will exacerbate tension among the CF community. If I have misunderstood the argument please correct me.

That was my common, administrative reasoning.
However, my foundational reasoning would be that it is contradictory to Christian teaching in authority, correction, and resolving issues. Citing scripture has not proven effective in focusing the minds of those that want that feature, so I will leave that simply referenced.

Since this has been a topic or has had a small "following" in repeated requesting, I'm curious as to what the advocates for this proposed addition think will actually be brought about in way of benefits. Aside from the mentioned 'removing doubts' or tension (which can equally be attributed to entertaining gossip BTW), I don't see how a user allowing their appeal to be made public would bring change, much less benefit. After all, it isn't a popularity/polling based moderation or a democracy where viewers have a vote, and it isn't a shareholder's position where investment brings authority. So even if the moderation was placed into the extreme of it was clearly correct application or clearly mishandled/in error, what benefit would it be for random (very much assumed) viewing merely for the sake of 'seeing'. After all, moderators need to develop their skills and require the same grace and privacy during the process (to my understanding) and that already contains a jury of peers via fellow moderators. If the spirit of the rules are applied on both sides, legalism and hyper-focusing on precedents are avoided. Additionally, it's not actually being proposed that non-Christians should have a say in the moderation on a Christian forum, is it?
 
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I think the first step would be to make the moderator's secret posts viewable to the appelate first... see how that works... then give the option to make the appeals thread public or not.

As it is right now, the appealate only sees one-three posts telling them that it is being looked at, and the decision.

I think it is bias (for lack of a better word, if you have a suggestion, let me know) for the moderator you appeal to be able to see both sides of the story, however, the appealate doesn't get to see the side of the moderator because of the secret posts.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Shannonkish said:
I think the first step would be to make the moderator's secret posts viewable to the appelate first... see how that works... then give the option to make the appeals thread public or not.

As it is right now, the appealate only sees one-three posts telling them that it is being looked at, and the decision.

I think it is bias (for lack of a better word, if you have a suggestion, let me know) for the moderator you appeal to be able to see both sides of the story, however, the appealate doesn't get to see the side of the moderator because of the secret posts.

So I understand... does that mean you are only interested in seeing the posts dealing strickly with your own apeals? I was under the impression that this was 'open to public' in the generalized sense that was being discussed. :confused:
 
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Neverstop said:
Please forgive me if this suggestion is a bit late...but after some prayer and thought, here is the idea.

Make Appeals optional for public viewing. Obviously no one but the Member filing the Appeal and Mods handling the Appeal in the Chain of Command would be allowed to respond. This would eliminate the question of secrecy and allow no room for doubt in the application of rule enforcement.

Furthermore, this would be a great learning tool for all CF members who are unsure about how some rules are violated.

Overall the Mods have a tremendous responsibility and it cannot be an easy job by anyones' standards. Thank you to all who so freely dedicate your time and effort to CF!

I'd support this wholeheartedly!:thumbsup:
 
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Crazy Liz

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You raise several important questions, CC. Thanks for bringing them up as you did. This is something I've thought about a lot, too, and I think there may be room for improvement if we work on this idea some more.

ChristianCenturion said:
That was my common, administrative reasoning.
However, my foundational reasoning would be that it is contradictory to Christian teaching in authority, correction, and resolving issues. Citing scripture has not proven effective in focusing the minds of those that want that feature, so I will leave that simply referenced.

OK, I'll cite what I think is the most relevant scripture:

[bible]matthew 18:15-20[/bible]

This is the only instance I can think of in the gospels where Jesus himself gives a step-by-step procedure for anything, so it makes sense that we pay close attention to this scripture in creating or reforming a dispute resolution system for use in a Christian community.

Since this has been a topic or has had a small "following" in repeated requesting, I'm curious as to what the advocates for this proposed addition think will actually be brought about in way of benefits. Aside from the mentioned 'removing doubts' or tension (which can equally be attributed to entertaining gossip BTW), I don't see how a user allowing their appeal to be made public would bring change, much less benefit. After all, it isn't a popularity/polling based moderation or a democracy where viewers have a vote, and it isn't a shareholder's position where investment brings authority. So even if the moderation was placed into the extreme of it was clearly correct application or clearly mishandled/in error, what benefit would it be for random (very much assumed) viewing merely for the sake of 'seeing'.

If the member and mod can't work it out between the two of them, let the first appeal be private, with only the mod's immediate superiors able to view it. Gossip is a problem, but it can happen among staff just as much as it can happen among members. Making appeals visible to all staff but invisible to all members does not solve the gossip problem. Staff can gossip via PMs and staff forums, and members can gossip via PMs and Elsewhere.

You're right that this forum is not modeled after a democracy or a corporation. What should it be modeled after? Shouldn't we look first to the procedures prescribed by Jesus himself for resolving disputes in a church? There may be some difficulties with applying that procedure here, but shouldn't we look at it first.

As specifically applied to the OP, Jesus prescribes a first step that is entirely private, a second step that brings in one or two helpers, and a third step that is public. Jesus doesn't expect us to be perfect. We can't always resolve disputes privately. Sometimes we need help, and sometimes it is appropriate to make it public, if all else has failed.

After all, moderators need to develop their skills and require the same grace and privacy during the process (to my understanding) and that already contains a jury of peers via fellow moderators. If the spirit of the rules are applied on both sides, legalism and hyper-focusing on precedents are avoided.
A VERY important point that should be added to the OP's suggestion, IMHO.

If we want to follow Matthew 18, there needs to be an opportunity to work things out privately before making it public. A mod might realize he or she made a mistake. If so, let that mod reverse his/her decision before the appeal is made public.

Additionally, it's not actually being proposed that non-Christians should have a say in the moderation on a Christian forum, is it?

Another point for discussion, after the other points have been explored.
 
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