Apostolic succession in view of Catholics

[joshuanazar]

If an elder/overseer/bishop is not ordained by someone to reach his position, how exactly does God "raise up" these elders in the church? Is it a democracy or does the pastor just pick who he likes? In Acts, the Apostles performed a laying of hands ceremony to signify passing of authority and imbuing of the Holy Spirit on these men? As new churches were formed, these leaders would perform the same laying of hands on others.

The existence of bishops and apostolic succession is discussed in detail in very early church writings, including St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp and St. Iraeneus all from the 2nd century.

Again we do not want tradition, we want God's Word. Tell us book, chapter and verse of where this is supported by scripture. And how does God raise up elders? By giving them his anointing. It is God who decides. Not democratic processes or some unscriptural hierarchy, God decides.

 

[BryanW92]

It is God who decides. Not democratic processes or some unscriptural hierarchy, God decides.

God decides, but how does he inform us of his decision?

 

[St Antony]

God decides, but how does he inform us of his decision?

Exactly, this is why candidates for ordination must go through a process lasting several years to discern God's will for them. Only after spending time in a monastery or other contemplative setting and then several years at a seminary, does a candidate decide if the religious life is really for him. I guess, for those who are ordained, God must have sent them a pretty powerful sign of his wish.

 

[BryanW92]

Exactly, this is why candidates for ordination must go through a process lasting several years to discern God's will for them. Only after spending time in a monastery or other contemplative setting and then several years at a seminary, does a candidate decide if the religious life is really for him. I guess, for those who are ordained, God must have sent them a pretty powerful sign of his wish.

I was wondering how this happens in a non-denom setting without hierarchy or accountability. When I drive downtown, there are billboards and churches along the way with crazy names that advertise the name of their pastor (or in one case, the Pastor-Prophetess!) and I always wonder how God's decision was communicated to a person who just decided to open a church.

 

[joshuanazar]

God decides, but how does he inform us of his decision?

He informs us by his Spirit. No one can know the things of God but the Spirit of God and who the Spirit reveals it to. We are sealed to the Body of Christ by this Spirit and we recognize the Spirit. When it is time for God to make his decision, he reveals it to the Church through his Spirit. And all of our spirits are supposed to recognize and agree with the Holy Spirit....However, sometimes we are to focused on the world to recognize the Spirit and that is how disagreements and divisions form in the Body of Christ.

 

[Xalith]

I was wondering how this happens in a non-denom setting without hierarchy or accountability. When I drive downtown, there are billboards and churches along the way with crazy names that advertise the name of their pastor (or in one case, the Pastor-Prophetess!) and I always wonder how God's decision was communicated to a person who just decided to open a church.

Not every church is a true church, there are lot of false churches out there. I'd be very, very wary of any church that is headed by a "Pastor-Prophetess", especially. Does the Bible not speak against Women holding positions of authority within a church? That alone should be a huge red flag against such a church, that it isn't what it looks like.

 

[Job8]

I was wondering how this happens in a non-denom setting without hierarchy or accountability.

That's exactly the question which the scribes and Pharisees had for Jesus of Nazareth. "By what authority do you do these things?" He never went to their rabbinic schools and he rejected their traditions of men. He was a thorn in their side.

Scripture does not call for a hierarchy, but it does call for accountability directly to God. And the Holy Spirit reveals to spiritual Christians those who have been called, gifted, and qualified BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to be shepherds in their churches. Notice what Paul says to the elders as to who has appointed them (Acts 20:28):
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Even though Paul the apostle is speaking, he does not claim that he is the one who appointed them. So much for apostolic succession.

 

[Job8]

Not every church is a true church, there are lot of false churches out there. I'd be very, very wary of any church that is headed by a "Pastor-Prophetess", especially. Does the Bible not speak against Women holding positions of authority within a church? That alone should be a huge red flag against such a church, that it isn't what it looks like.
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You are correct. A true Bible church must have a plurality of elders/pastors/bishops and none of them can be a woman. That is indeed a huge red flag.

 

[joshuanazar]

I disagree. Women can be pastors and prophetesses. Was not Deborah judge over all of Israel? Does the bible not name prophetesses like Anna? Did not women have churches in there homes? Does Paul not say that there is no difference between man and woman, Greek or Jew? Will God send a woman to hell for preaching his grace?

 

[joshuanazar]

That's exactly the question which the scribes and Pharisees had for Jesus of Nazareth. "By what authority do you do these things?" He never went to their rabbinic schools and he rejected their traditions of men. He was a thorn in their side.

Scripture does not call for a hierarchy, but it does call for accountability directly to God. And the Holy Spirit reveals to spiritual Christians those who have been called, gifted, and qualified BY THE HOLY SPIRIT to be shepherds in their churches. Notice what Paul says to the elders as to who has appointed them (Acts 20:28):
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Even though Paul the apostle is speaking, he does not claim that he is the one who appointed them. So much for apostolic succession.

I love this post.

 

[BryanW92]

Even though Paul the apostle is speaking, he does not claim that he is the one who appointed them. So much for apostolic succession.

But Paul did appoint them. The Holy Spirit told him who to appoint, but he was the one who pointed a finger and said, "You." And the people trusted that decision becuase they trusted Paul and his connection to the Holy Spirit.

Have you ever been in a church where the pastor leaves? Did you just wait for a new pastor to show up and claim that the spirit told him to be there, or did the church form a committee (which is a hierarchy of men) to search for the right pastor?

 

[Xalith]

I disagree. Women can be pastors and prophetesses. Was not Deborah judge over all of Israel? Does the bible not name prophetesses like Anna? Did not women have churches in there homes? Does Paul not say that there is no difference between man and woman, Greek or Jew? Will God send a woman to hell for preaching his grace?

Deborah was in the Old Testament, and Paul never said that women couldn't be prophets, however he DID say this:

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


-1 Timothy 2:11-12

That is basically saying that women should not be leaders of the church and/or having spiritual authority over men.

Sometimes God can use a woman to be a prophetess (Deborah, etc.) but they are not to be leaders in churches to have authority over men.

 

[joshuanazar]

But Paul did appoint them. The Holy Spirit told him who to appoint, but he was the one who pointed a finger and said, "You." And the people trusted that decision becuase they trusted Paul and his connection to the Holy Spirit.

Have you ever been in a church where the pastor leaves? Did you just wait for a new pastor to show up and claim that the spirit told him to be there, or did the church form a committee (which is a hierarchy of men) to search for the right pastor?

I would not attend a church where the people took it on themselves to decide for God and I would not follow anyone just because they said God told them. I would inquire of the Spirit myself. Also why is the pastor leaving his flock in the first place? Leaving the sheep is what the hireling does.

 

[BryanW92]

I would not attend a church where the people took it on themselves to decide for God and I would not follow anyone just because they said God told them. I would inquire of the Spirit myself. Also why is the pastor leaving his flock in the first place? Leaving the sheep is what the hireling does.

Pastors die. Pastors retire.

I'm not saying that "people took it on themselves to decide for God". They are just as capable as you are at inquiring of the Spirit.

 

[joshuanazar]

Pastors die. Pastors retire.

I'm not saying that "people took it on themselves to decide for God". They are just as capable as you are at inquiring of the Spirit.

Why would any pastor want to retire? If you are done fulfilling God's will, then it is time to die.

But yea they die, in which case the Spirit will makes its choice known to everyone capable of hearing it. There should be no need for a discussion though. If there is, then I worry about that church's direction since they have such a hard time hearing from God. It is and always will be God's choice, we just agree with him. But I know that you know this, so I will just end by repeating something else that you will agree with. The elders are there to serve the church, not the church serve the elders. We have no lords or kings over us besides Christ, we have servants of which Christ is the best.

 

[joshuanazar]

Deborah was in the Old Testament, and Paul never said that women couldn't be prophets, however he DID say this:


That is basically saying that women should not be leaders of the church and/or having spiritual authority over men.

Sometimes God can use a woman to be a prophetess (Deborah, etc.) but they are not to be leaders in churches to have authority over men.

I knew a female pastor, she was awesome. Up to the day her husband died she obeyed him while still pastoring. Of course she always obeyed Jesus first, even if it meant disobeying her husband. Maybe he could have been the pastor if he wasn't so ungodly. What do you think a prophetess is but a woman who preaches?

And we all know that those verses that you used are taken out of their cultural context. Do you have anymore or did you just isolate those verse from the rest of the New Testament? You ignored where I quoted scripture in favor of women equality.

You didn't answer my question, will God send a woman to hell for preaching his grace?

 

[BryanW92]

Why would any pastor want to retire? If you are done fulfilling God's will, then it is time to die.

But yea they die, in which case the Spirit will makes its choice known to everyone capable of hearing it. There should be no need for a discussion though. If there is, then I worry about that church's direction since they have such a hard time hearing from God. It is and always will be God's choice, we just agree with him. But I know that you know this, so I will just end by repeating something else that you will agree with. The elders are there to serve the church, not the church serve the elders. We have no lords or kings over us besides Christ, we have servants of which Christ is the best.

They get old and tired. Just like all of us.

When you are replacing a pastor and don't have an heir apparent waiting in the wings, you need to go through a search process. Believe me when I say that it is a test of the Spirit for all involved. But, I've never seen a name written on a wall by a finger of flame telling us who to go find.

When the elders are going through this process, they are serving the church. I saw one quit because after 6 months of searching and praying and discerning, they finally settled on the right guy that the Spirit told them to choose. They called him up to give him the good news and he said that the Spirit had told him to withdraw his application. One Spirit---two conflicting messages. Hmm.

The Holy Spirit is a counselor and we don't always heed the advice of counsel.

 

[joshuanazar]

They get old and tired. Just like all of us.

When you are replacing a pastor and don't have an heir apparent waiting in the wings, you need to go through a search process. Believe me when I say that it is a test of the Spirit for all involved. But, I've never seen a name written on a wall by a finger of flame telling us who to go find.

When the elders are going through this process, they are serving the church. I saw one quit because after 6 months of searching and praying and discerning, they finally settled on the right guy that the Spirit told them to choose. They called him up to give him the good news and he said that the Spirit had told him to withdraw his application. One Spirit---two conflicting messages. Hmm.

The Holy Spirit is a counselor and we don't always heed the advice of counsel.

Again why would they get tired or let their age effect how they feel, when they have life in them. And the Spirit always agrees. Obviously in your example the church was wrong.

 

[BryanW92]

Again why would they get tired or let their age effect how they feel, when they have life in them. And the Spirit always agrees. Obviously in your example the church was wrong.

Ever hear of Alzheimers?? Was that God's punishment for something he did as a pastor to prevent him from preaching until died?

I agree with you that the Spirit always agrees. That was my point. That God does not choose a pastor by writing a name on a wall with a finger of flame. He works through humans, some of whom have agendas and none of them hear the Spirit perfectly and obey without error. From Day One of the church in Acts, there have been humans and problems. No church is 100% perfectly spirit-led because the spirit does not lead. He gives counsel. He suggests. He gives knowledge and wisdom, but it is a human who turns that into action. And the flesh is weak.

 

[joshuanazar]

Ever hear of Alzheimers?? Was that God's punishment for something he did as a pastor to prevent him from preaching until died?

I agree with you that the Spirit always agrees. That was my point. That God does not choose a pastor by writing a name on a wall with a finger of flame. He works through humans, some of whom have agendas and none of them hear the Spirit perfectly and obey without error. From Day One of the church in Acts, there have been humans and problems. No church is 100% perfectly spirit-led because the spirit does not lead. He gives counsel. He suggests. He gives knowledge and wisdom, but it is a human who turns that into action. And the flesh is weak.

But the Spirit does lead. The bible says be led of the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But yes as long as we agree that is is God who chooses and we have no chain of command to go through to reach God, then I see no problem.

Now as for Alzheimer's, it is a disease brought no by the destroyer. The Destroyer is Satan and God is the healer. If that man is still alive, then God still has a purpose for him in this world. And I believe in a healing God.