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Have you read the lives of any Protestant or Roman Catholic 'saints' for comparison?I suspect that you have a different understanding of Saints. I'm not simply speaking of modified behaviour, but rather completely transformed. For these men and women who the Orthodox Church recognises as Saints, they have put on the divine nature to the extent that the supernatural is their normal mode of existence.
Thank you very much Anastasia for your warm welcome today and for your replies to me previously.But I did want to welcome you.
God be with you.
Thank you very much Northbrook and Virgil for recommending some books that you think may help me.Good luck in your search for the True Church!
I haven't read the Church Fathers extensively but I'm curious to know, did any Church Father before 300 AD advocate venerating images/icons? And praying to dead saints? If so, can you cite the relevant passages please. Thank you.
Is that letter online? If so, can you send me a link to it please.the earliest I know is St Athanasius of Alexandria's letter to Antiochus the prefect, which means it was an already established practice before the early 300s.
Many quotes of OT passages in the NT match the Septuagint, but not all of them. Estimates vary from between 50% and 66%. The remaining quotes either match the Masoretic text or don't conform to either. So the apostles' intermittent use of the Septuagint doesn't prove they elevated the Septuagint above the Masoretic nor does it prove they necessarily endorsed the canon of the Septuagint.praying to departed (because they are not dead, because they are alive in Christ) is in the Septuagint OT which was the OT of the earliest Christians.
Do you mean church buildings in the 1st century had graffiti of saint veneration on the walls? Do you have evidence of them? Messages addressed to dead people on the walls of the catacombs are not equivalent to prayer, any more than "Rest in Peace" on a tombstone is a prayer to a dead person.but I can also say when we see the early Churches, we see basic images and graffiti of saint veneration on the walls.
The apostles did not encourage Christians to slavishly imitate all the Jewish practices of the Temple and the 1st century synagogues (e.g. making burnt offerings to atone for sin!) The very first Christians attended those places of worship and prayer until they were thrown out, but their attendance was not tacit approval of everything that happened therein. Furthermore, images of lions and palm trees and pomegranates in the temple is not the same as venerating saints.plus the Temple, Tabernacle, and early 1st century synagogues where Christ and the Apostles would have gone had images.
You would have to point out a Protestant Saint as I've never heard of any who would be anywhere near the same league as the holy men and women that the Orthodox Church has produced. As regards Catholic Saints, they have been few and far between since the great schism and of those the Catholic Church has recognised as Saints, there is often something about their lives that does not jive with Orthodox theology and praxis.Have you read the lives of any Protestant or Roman Catholic 'saints' for comparison?
I know you weren't asking me, but I have read biographies of Catholics and Protestants such as you may be thinking of. And have admired their faith, or devotion, etc.Have you read the lives of any Protestant or Roman Catholic 'saints' for comparison?
Without reading that letter I wouldn't be able to tell whether Athanasius was actually endorsing the veneration of icons or just discussing it without approval. But anyway, Athanasius lived in the 4th century, which hardly proves it was a tradition instituted by the apostles. Isn't there any better evidence than that?not sure if St Athanasius' letter is online. St John of Damascus uses it in his work On the Holy Images.
If you analyze which version of the OT got quoted in the NT, you can deduce which version of the OT were used by the NT writers. The question of which version Jesus and his first followers used is definitely not cut & dried. See, for example, "The Canon Debate" by Lee Martin McDonald and James A. Sanders.as for the Septuagint, I am not referring to what was written in the NT. Christ used the Septuagint as did the Apostles because that's what was used in the hinterlands, which was where they all were from. so for Christ, Who is Truth, to have used the Septuagint says something.
What do you mean by "the earliest centuries"? How early?as for the prayer, yeah, there has been found that asking for saint intercession. National Geographic actually took a small camera into the walls of the Holy Sepulchre and found rolled papers of prayers from the earliest centuries. plus, "rest in peace" technically is a prayer.
We're not discussing whether holy images are against Christ's teaching. We're discussing the veneration of images. What evidence do you have that the Jews venerated the images in the temple?as for the images, if the Apostles continued until thrown out, that clearly shows holy images are not against Christ's teaching. and those images of cherubim and animals were venerated (respected), just in a different way.
Without reading that letter I wouldn't be able to tell whether Athanasius was actually endorsing the veneration of icons or just discussing it without approval. But anyway, Athanasius lived in the 4th century, which hardly proves it was a tradition instituted by the apostles. Isn't there any better evidence than that?
If you analyze which version of the OT got quoted in the NT, you can deduce which version of the OT were used by the NT writers. The question of which version Jesus and his first followers used is definitely not cut & dried. See, for example, "The Canon Debate" by Lee Martin McDonald and James A. Sanders.
What do you mean by "the earliest centuries"? How early?
There are many passages about prayer in the New Testament, and (from my limited research) some of the Church Fathers wrote entire treatises on prayer. As a major part of the Christian life it was discussed frequently and in depth. But none of the New Testament passages or the early treatises on prayer advocate praying to the deceased, and they sometimes condemn the offering of prayer to anyone except God. So why is praying to the deceased either absent or contradicted early on? That suggests to me it is not a custom taught by the apostles but crept in at a later date.
We're not discussing whether holy images are against Christ's teaching. We're discussing the veneration of images. What evidence do you have that the Jews venerated the images in the temple?
Hi Anastasia,How do you understand "veneration"?
How do you understand a person, say a respected elder, who is "venerable"?
Hi Anastasia,
I understand veneration to mean showing respect for a particular person or object. I venerate certain people (some alive, some dead) and all holy angels. I also venerate certain objects, e.g. I never put my Bible on the floor.
If you gave me an icon of, say, of an apostle or a hero of the early church, I would probably venerate it too in the sense that I would handle it gently and not use it as a dartboard. I would not consider the wood or paint from which it was made to be specially holy but I would venerate the icon for the sake of the holy person it depicted.
But I would never attempt to approach God, or to harness or tap into spiritual power, by proximity, touching, or kneeling in front of a physical object.
Hi Anastasia,
I understand veneration to mean showing respect for a particular person or object. I venerate certain people (some alive, some dead) and all holy angels. I also venerate certain objects, e.g. I never put my Bible on the floor.
If you gave me an icon of, say, of an apostle or a hero of the early church, I would probably venerate it too in the sense that I would handle it gently and not use it as a dartboard. I would not consider the wood or paint from which it was made to be specially holy but I would venerate the icon for the sake of the holy person it depicted.
But I would never attempt to approach God, or to harness or tap into spiritual power, by proximity, touching, or kneeling in front of a physical object.
As regards Catholic Saints, they have been few and far between since the great schism and of those the Catholic Church has recognised as Saints, there is often something about their lives that does not jive with Orthodox theology and praxis.
For example:
http://www.orthodox.cn/catechesis/potapov/13en.htm
I would be very grateful if I could ask some questions about icons please.
How does it benefit you to pray in front of an icon? If you are praying to God, isn't it a distraction to be looking at the picture of a man or woman?
No one knows what the earliest individual Christians looked like. So all the icons of the apostles must be sheer guesswork and speculation. What is the point of having a picture of someone which may be totally different to what the person actually looked like?
All the icons I've seen of the apostles depict men who look Greek rather than Jewish. Their facial features are typically Caucasian and not Middle Eastern. Why is that?
And why do icons of the apostles and of Mary often depict them dressed in lavish costly garments as they were wealthy aristocrats?
And all the icons I've seen show people with a particular facial expression. They all look dour, melancholy, and lacking in vitality. Why is that?
This is not meant as a criticism of icons. I just want to find out the explanation for things I don't understand. I recognize that icons are a very important part of your worship. Thank you.
How did the cherubim benefit the worshipper? Only the high priest ever saw the cherubim, and he only saw it once a year. What do you mean by saying that icons help the eyes in prayer? How does it help you to look at the face of a man when you are praying to God?icons benefit the same way the cherubim in the Temple did. since prayer engages the whole man, icons help the eyes in prayer.
What does "theology in colour" mean? Can you explain it in simple words rather than soundbites please?icons are not meant to be accurate, they are theology in color.
It's not just the skin colour that looks Greek. It's the hairstyle, the shape of the eyes and nose, the size of the mouth, etc.they are designed to look like they are illumined by the Light of God's grace, not white ethnically.
Have you seen this?none of the icons of the Apostles I have seen have them in anything lavish, only different colors so you know who you are looking at.
Beyond emotion? Prayer is more than just emotion but it is not without emotion. If we pray with all our mind and heart it will certainly involve our emotions, whatever deeper dimensions it may also include.the expression isn't dour, just straightfaced. prayer should take us past emotions.
There's an old expression that goes, "a picture is worth a thousand words."What does "theology in colour" mean?
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