Apostles?

[Hermeneutico]

The Bible clearly shows that the Apostolic Period ended after the church universal was established, and thereafter elders, shepherds (pastors), teachers, evangelists were set forth by God (not men) and always in the plural in an assembly, to serve God and maintain the scriptural testimony by following the Scripture and the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Where?

 

[Hermeneutico]

Did Paul not have a meeting with the resurrected Lord on the Damascus Road?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Yes, but go read the entire verse in Acts carefully... there is more than that as a requirement!

 

[Alive_Again]

There were many more in the Bible than the 12 or 13-14 including Paul and Matthias.

The five fold ministry are still doing the work of edification, training the saints for the work of ministry. We have evangelists and teachers and pastors, why do away with apostles and prophets?

They have a strong anointing and often have remarkable experiences.

 

[Faith.Man]

Thanks everyone for your replies!

I read this verse in Revelation, it seems interesting:

Revelation 21:14
The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So it would seem that Matthias is the odd man out. Was he not chosen too? Or is it Paul, the odd man out?

Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
Acts 1:25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
Acts 1:26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. [NASB]

 

[lismore]

Interesting suggestion Faith Man. Thanks for sharing.

Does Matthias appear subsequently in the New testament?

 

[Faith.Man]

Interesting suggestion Faith Man. Thanks for sharing.

Does Matthias appear subsequently in the New testament?

From what I can tell, the answer is no. He is only mentioned twice in Acts 1:23 and Acts 1:26.

Since Jesus chose the 11 + Judas Iscariot, and He also chose Paul, I we would think think they would have the edge over Matthias. He may have done great things as one of the "12" for the Jews, but Paul was chosen to be the "1" for the Gentiles by Jesus. Jesus personally chose 12; the original 11 and Paul. Matthias was chosen by the Apostles.

This is all conjecture on my part, but I believe I have reasonable argument.

 

[FredVB]

So it would seem that Matthias is the odd man out.

Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
Acts 1:25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
Acts 1:26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. [NASB]

He is only mentioned twice in Acts 1:23 and Acts 1:26.

Since Jesus chose the 11 + Judas Iscariot, and He also chose Paul, I we would think think they would have the edge over Matthias. He may have done great things as one of the "12" for the Jews, but Paul was chosen to be the "1" for the Gentiles by Jesus. Jesus personally chose 12; the original 11 and Paul. Matthias was chosen by the Apostles.

This is all conjecture on my part, but I believe I have reasonable argument.

There is to be said what the apostles in Jerusalem themselves said is an exception to that. With their authority given by Christ and Matthias' qualification, with a basis I have mentioned from scripture, he was counted among the twelve as one of the apostles. Paul was later called, indeed by Christ who manifested himself to Paul, to be an apostle, to the gentiles. But in scriptures, it is clear that he answered to the twelve in Jerusalem, nothing contradicting that. He was an additional apostle, called afterward with other qualification and separate from the twelve apostles. And so it was even with Barnabas.

 

[Albion]

[/color]
So it would seem that Matthias is the odd man out. Was he not chosen too? Or is it Paul, the odd man out?[/color]

Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen
Acts 1:25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
Acts 1:26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. [NASB]

I'd say that it was Paul who was the "odd man out" (if that's the way to put it). He was considered an Apostle for all the reasons we are familiar with, but I don't think he ever claimed to be one of the Twelve. Matthias, although less important to the growth of the early church than Paul, was nevertheless appointed by the remaining Apostles to replace Judas in the Twelve. So to whatever extent "Twelve" matters, it would seem to be Matthias as part of that number.

 

[Faith.Man]

There is to be said what the apostles in Jerusalem themselves said is an exception to that. With their authority given by Christ and Matthias' qualification, with a basis I have mentioned from scripture, he was counted among the twelve as one of the apostles. Paul was later called, indeed by Christ who manifested himself to Paul, to be an apostle, to the gentiles. But in scriptures, it is clear that he answered to the twelve in Jerusalem, nothing contradicting that. He was an additional apostle, called afterward with other qualification and separate from the twelve apostles. And so it was even with Barnabas.

Matthias was chosen by lot, or the equivalent of drawing straws. Now being a good Calvinist I believe even though the eleven Apostles relied upon the arbitrariness of "drawing straws", the Apostles added the right man to their number. Nowadays, we would be appalled at making decisions using say a "Lucky 8-ball"! But this was not an uncommon practice for the Jewish people and I do not believe God ever spoke against them for doing it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaking of Paul and the 12, Paul corrected Peter in no uncertain terms as detailed in Acts. So at least 1 of the 12, Peter, answered to Paul, at least on one occassion.

Also concerning Matthias, do we even know Jesus knew him as He did the others? There were four Gospels written and considered Holy Scripture in the New Testament. Only two of these were written by Apostles.

 

[Faith.Man]

I'd say that it was Paul who was the "odd man out" (if that's the way to put it). He was considered an Apostle for all the reasons we are familiar with, but I don't think he ever claimed to be one of the Twelve. Matthias, although less important to the growth of the early church than Paul, was nevertheless appointed by the remaining Apostles to replace Judas in the Twelve. So to whatever extent "Twelve" matters, it would seem to be Matthias as part of that number.

You're probably right. But Jesus picked the first 12 knowing there was a rotten apple amongst them. Jesus also picked Paul in a miraculous way. The 11 picked Matthias by means a non-Calvinist would call chance. We do not know anything about him or what he did. Numbers are very important in the Jewish culture, e.g. 12 tribes, 12 Apostles. I think that's why the Apostles rushed to fill out their number to 12. Did the Holy Spirit lead them to do this? I do not know. I do not find this subject worth arguing over, but it is interesting. I would be leary of anyone who proclaims him or herself an Apostle.

 

[Isatis]

What do you think, are there apostles around today?

Nope.
In Acts 1:20-22, Peter specified two qualifications for the appointed apostle in replacement of Judas.
The replacement had to be someone who 1) had accompanied the disciples from the beginning of Jesus' ministry and had seen what the apostles had seen and heard what they have heard, an eyewitness to the miracles and teachings of Jesus; 2) was an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection.

Acts 1:20-22
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and,
‘Let another take his office.’
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

When James was killed (Acts 12:2), no replacement was chosen for him. Why? I believe the answer is in Acts 1:20 above. In fact, Peter applied Psalm 69:25 that speaks about the removal of the enemy (Judas) and psalm 109:8 that mentions the replacement of the enemy by someone else (Matthias). This means that Judas was replaced because he abandoned the position, which was not the case of James who died as a faithful martyr.

In Matthew 19:28, Jesus indicated that the twelve apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Twelve apostles, twelve tribes.

 

[Faith.Man]

Nope.
In Acts 1:20-22, Peter specified two qualifications for the appointed apostle in replacement of Judas.
The replacement had to be someone who 1) had accompanied the disciples from the beginning of Jesus' ministry and had seen what the apostles had seen and heard what they have heard, an eyewitness to the miracles and teachings of Jesus; 2) was an eyewitness of Jesus' resurrection.

Acts 1:20-22
20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and,
‘Let another take his office.’
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

When James was killed (Acts 12:2), no replacement was chosen for him. Why? I believe the answer is in Acts 1:20 above. In fact, Peter applied Psalm 69:25 that speaks about the removal of the enemy (Judas) and psalm 109:8 that mentions the replacement of the enemy by someone else (Matthias). This means that Judas was replaced because he abandoned the position, which was not the case of James who died as a faithful martyr.

In Matthew 19:28, Jesus indicated that the twelve apostles will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Twelve apostles, twelve tribes.

One comment I'd like to add to your thorough analysis. The 11 Apostles decided to add an Apostle before the Holy Spirit descended upon them on Pentecost. So, it wasn't the Holy Spirit who was leading the Apostles to add another.

 

[FredVB]

There is to be said what the apostles in Jerusalem themselves said is an exception to that. With their authority given by Christ and Matthias' qualification, with a basis I have mentioned from scripture, he was counted among the twelve as one of the apostles. Paul was later called, indeed by Christ who manifested himself to Paul, to be an apostle, to the gentiles. But in scriptures, it is clear that he answered to the twelve in Jerusalem, nothing contradicting that. He was an additional apostle, called afterward with other qualification and separate from the twelve apostles. And so it was even with Barnabas.

Matthias was chosen by lot, or the equivalent of drawing straws. Now being a good Calvinist I believe even though the eleven Apostles relied upon the arbitrariness of "drawing straws", the Apostles added the right man to their number. Nowadays, we would be appalled at making decisions using say a "Lucky 8-ball"! But this was not an uncommon practice for the Jewish people and I do not believe God ever spoke against them for doing it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaking of Paul and the 12, Paul corrected Peter in no uncertain terms as detailed in Acts. So at least 1 of the 12, Peter, answered to Paul, at least on one occassion.

Also concerning Matthias, do we even know Jesus knew him as He did? the others? There were four Gospels written and considered Holy Scripture in the New Testament. Only two of these were written by Apostles.

But Jesus picked the first 12 knowing there was a rotten apple amongst them.

Yes I could correct the thinking, I had done it with what I previously said which was posted. Check the scripture passage.

There were 12 apostles that were with Jesus from the time of John according to the definition used earlier, that including Matthias, and Paul and Barnabas were also sent as apostles, for the gospel to be spread widely to the Gentiles.
Matthias was the qualified man chosen, counted among the twelve, it would not be Judas Iscariot; see Proverbs 16:33. And Barnabas was named as apostle along with Paul, as was being said. So there were the twelve apostles together, and the two others named.

Qualifications of Matthias are shown, the apostles were authorized with what they said in scripture being binding, the Spirit of Yahweh God not being critical of the appointment. Would you also be critical of the Urim and the Thummim?

In Acts you see that Paul answers to the apostles in Jerusalem, in the context of the account of Galatians Paul still answers to apostles, including Peter, as pillars of the faith, so when he is critical of Peter for a poor decision, it authorizes us by example to be critical of poor decisions of those who are in a position as leaders over us.

Jesus did certainly know Matthias who was a follower from early on, as said, with his qualifications.

What is the point of the other two gospel accounts? That they are to be doubted? They still had authority from apostles that were influentially involved with them.

Jesus in this world had access to all knowledge as God, but he voluntarily used limited knowledge as a human in living among us as one, he gave Judas every chance among the followers as one of the specially chosen. Judas with his choices betrayed Christ, the devil entered into him. But there were to be twelve apostles, that is repeated in further scripture. But Paul was never included being listed among them, his apostleship, for going out to the gentiles, was a separate one.

 

[Faith.Man]

Yes I could correct the thinking, I had done it with what I previously said which was posted. Check the scripture passage.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I'll look at your previous posts again.

There were 12 apostles that were with Jesus from the time of John according to the definition used earlier, that including Matthias, and Paul and Barnabas were also sent as apostles, for the gospel to be spread widely to the Gentiles.

With the timeline limited to the time of the last Apostle dying, John on the Isle of Patmos. That limits the position of apostle but I do not see any Biblical reason for making this assumption. One could also argue using the same reasoning that Jesus said to go throughout the world spreading the Gospel (Good News). Some of the Apostles did travel, some did not, and some we do not know for sure what they did.

Matthias was the qualified man chosen, counted among the twelve, it would not be Judas Iscariot; see Proverbs 16:33. And Barnabas was named as apostle along with Paul, as was being said. So there were the twelve apostles together, and the two others named.

That we know of.

Qualifications of Matthias are shown, the apostles were authorized with what they said in scripture being binding, the Spirit of Yahweh God not being critical of the appointment. Would you also be critical of the Urim and the Thummim?

Jesus had forty or so Disciples following Him around as he traveled preaching the good news. The Apostles probably picked the best two from this group. As for the Urim and Thummin, further proof of Calvinism vs free will from the Old Testament. Every prophetic utterance provides additional support. Judas was born a condemned man, although he didn't know it until he fulfilled prophecy by his actions.

In Acts you see that Paul answers to the apostles in Jerusalem, in the context of the account of Galatians Paul still answers to apostles, including Peter, as pillars of the faith, so when he is critical of Peter for a poor decision, it authorizes us by example to be critical of poor decisions of those who are in a position as leaders over us.

Yes, what you say is true. But Paul was a persecutor of Christians before becoming one himself. I believe he felt he had to prove his faith to the Apostles there, some of whom were uneasy about his change.

Jesus did certainly know Matthias who was a follower from early on, as said, with his qualifications.

You may be right (and probably are) but you cannot point to a scripture that proves it.

What is the point of the other two gospel accounts? That they are to be doubted? They still had authority from apostles that were influentially involved with them.

True.

Jesus in this world had access to all knowledge as God, but he voluntarily used limited knowledge as a human in living among us as one, he gave Judas every chance among the followers as one of the specially chosen. Judas with his choices betrayed Christ, the devil entered into him. But there were to be twelve apostles, that is repeated in further scripture. But Paul was never included being listed among them, his apostleship, for going out to the gentiles, was a separate one.

This is where we disagree. Judas was alluded to in many passages in the Old Testament. From God's sovereign position, Judas was already a betrayer before being conceived. From Judas' perspective, he was making free will choices. But in actuality, Judas was condemned from before conception and Jesus gave him enough rope to hang himself, literally. Jesus knew who the betrayer was, and scripture proves it.

With the election of Matthias as Apostle, either you believe in God's Sovereignty (Calvinism) or you believe in chance (free will). The Holy Spirit had not descended upon them yet.

 

[FredVB]

I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I'll look at your previous posts again.

With the timeline limited to the time of the last Apostle dying, John on the Isle of Patmos. That limits the position of apostle but I do not see any Biblical reason for making this assumption. One could also argue using the same reasoning that Jesus said to go throughout the world spreading the Gospel (Good News). Some of the Apostles did travel, some did not, and some we do not know for sure what they did.

Jesus had forty or so Disciples following Him around as he traveled preaching the good news. The Apostles probably picked the best two from this group. As for the Urim and Thummin, further proof of Calvinism vs free will from the Old Testament. Every prophetic utterance provides additional support. Judas was born a condemned man, although he didn't know it until he fulfilled prophecy by his actions.

You may be right (and probably are) but you cannot point to a scripture that proves it.

This is where we disagree. Judas was alluded to in many passages in the Old Testament. From God's sovereign position, Judas was already a betrayer before being conceived. From Judas' perspective, he was making free will choices. But in actuality, Judas was condemned from before conception and Jesus gave him enough rope to hang himself, literally. Jesus knew who the betrayer was, and scripture proves it.

With the election of Matthias as Apostle, either you believe in God's Sovereignty (Calvinism) or you believe in chance (free will). The Holy Spirit had not descended upon them yet.

These parts below from my last post I show for answering.

Matthias was the qualified man chosen, counted among the twelve, it would not be Judas Iscariot; see Proverbs 16:33.

Jesus did certainly know Matthias who was a follower from early on, as said, with his qualifications.

Jesus in this world had access to all knowledge as God, but he voluntarily used limited knowledge as a human in living among us as one.

I do not know if you went to check, but the first paragraph from what I last wrote is quoting my earlier post, with the Bible passage I used, from Proverbs, to say the Bible does not call that event in which appointed apostles given the authority and praying to Yahweh God about it chance. I do not see the connections you make with Calvinism, though.

There was a growing number of the followers of Jesus. Each incident recorded of someone new encountering him Jesus knew enough about them for how to deal with them, and it was told Matthias was one of the few that was with Jesus as a follower from the beginning of the ministry. So we would know from it that Jesus knew Matthias.

The Spirit of God was not foreign to them or absent, although the outward manifestation would yet happen, but he shows what is wrong, which he never did with this. It is not an issue of an important doctrine, but I speak on the apostles because indeed the twelve meant to be were indeed twelve, Judas never actually was made one, and Paul, later made an apostle to gentiles, along with Barnabas, is never numbered among the twelve, I can point this out for those who count Paul among the twelve, when there is no basis (other than that Judas was replaced, and Paul, who is well-known from scripture, is called an apostle).

I do not see any of this speaking on Calvinism. Judas had his choices, even though God knows all that happens, Christ in his incarnation voluntarily used limited knowledge, and gave him opportunity that was real, until Judas came to choose against it, and Christ knew that as shown.

That any apostles did not ever go out through the world with the gospel is not known, except maybe James who was killed early. But the commission is for the whole church generally, not for each individual or even for each apostle, beyond those in the circle give us.

 

[Faith.Man]

These parts below from my last post I show for answering.

I do not know if you went to check, but the first paragraph from what I last wrote is quoting my earlier post, with the Bible passage I used, from Proverbs, to say the Bible does not call that event in which appointed apostles given the authority and praying to Yahweh God about it chance. I do not see the connections you make with Calvinism, though.

You read something in what I wrote that was not intended in the way you took it. The Apostles (11) knowing the sovereignty of God, trusted drawing lots to see which of these two candidates would make them 12. Drawing lots was not leaving anything to chance. God's sovereignty is one of the main themes supporting Calvinism. I am both a Fundamentalist and a Calvinist. I will probably look at things differently than you. But let's not side-track this discussion.

There was a growing number of the followers of Jesus. Each incident recorded of someone new encountering him Jesus knew enough about them for how to deal with them, and it was told Matthias was one of the few that was with Jesus as a follower from the beginning of the ministry. So we would know from it that Jesus knew Matthias.

Jesus had disciples following Him everywhere He went. He did not choose the disciples, but did choose the Apostles. Do you see the difference? The disciples chose Jesus, but Jesus chose the Apostles.

The Spirit of God was not foreign to them or absent, although the outward manifestation would yet happen, but he shows what is wrong, which he never did with this. It is not an issue of an important doctrine, but I speak on the apostles because indeed the twelve meant to be were indeed twelve, Judas never actually was made one, and Paul, later made an apostle to gentiles, along with Barnabas, is never numbered among the twelve, I can point this out for those who count Paul among the twelve, when there is no basis (other than that Judas was replaced, and Paul, who is well-known from scripture, is called an apostle).

Well they certainly had a portion of the Holy Spirit since Jesus sent them out to the mission field. They did perform some miracles and drive out some demons but not all.

I do not see any of this speaking on Calvinism. Judas had his choices, even though God knows all that happens, Christ in his incarnation voluntarily used limited knowledge, and gave him opportunity that was real, until Judas came to choose against it, and Christ knew that as shown.

The Old Testament speaks of Judas (not by name) many times prophetically. God knew Judas would be the betrayer before he was conceived. I believe in a sovereign God that leaves nothing to chance.

That any apostles did not ever go out through the world with the gospel is not known, except maybe James who was killed early. But the commission is for the whole church generally, not for each individual or even for each apostle, beyond those in the circle give us.

 

[revrod]

I have always had a question about these types of discussions. If we believe that Christ is the same, that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father who does not change, and that the end of a thing is better than the beginning . . . then, why would God give ministry and/or Holy Spirit gifts to the early church and not to the entire church? Just a question.

 

[FredVB]

Jesus had disciples following Him everywhere He went. He did not choose the disciples, but did choose the Apostles. Do you see the difference? The disciples chose Jesus, but Jesus chose the Apostles.

The Old Testament speaks of Judas (not by name) many times prophetically. God knew Judas would be the betrayer before he was conceived. I believe in a sovereign God that leaves nothing to chance.

This distinguishing between disciples, which all Christ's followers were and are, and apostles (which those chosen for it were after the resurrection of Christ) is needless in this case, the number which was growing was small at the beginning, at the baptism from John, before any of the multitudes followed after Christ seeking him out. The point is Christ would certainly know the first followers, and Matthias was among them.

Yahweh God knows all things, of all time, so in that sense, there is no "chance", as someone said, God doesn't throw dice. But prophecies from his revelation are from his knowledge, he does not have to do more to make sure it will happen when it altready will as it is in his knowledge. Yet this or other scripture I know of does not establish the Calvinist interpretation of predestination. We are all given choices, which is giving us chances, this included Judas.

 

[FredVB]

I have always had a question about these types of discussions. If we believe that Christ is the same, that every good and perfect gift comes from the Father who does not change, and that the end of a thing is better than the beginning . . . then, why would God give ministry and/or Holy Spirit gifts to the early church and not to the entire church? Just a question.

There are different dispensations and various circumstances for individuals and groups of different times or places among the people of God, involving different purposes in the unfolding of God's kingdom.

The end that is better is when the perfect comes, we enter into what is prepared for the believers for eternity.

 

[Alive_Again]

There were the apostles of the Lamb and foundational apostles giving us the Word of God. There are apostles today preparing the Body of Christ as described in the Word of God. God never changed and His ways never change.

The works of apostles are still being done as well, although you typically will not see them unless you're in a church where they are received.