If having apostolic succession is supposed to protect the teachings as originally handed down, why doesn't everyone here agree?
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Apostles
- Thread starter Forest
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RestoreTheRiver
Contributor
The short answer is, "because we are human beings." God has always chosen to work in this world through people, with our free will, with our different histories, places, and cultures, and yes, with our sins.
Given this, it is remarkable how similar the various Apostolic Churches actually are, after more than 2,000 years. We agree that the essence of our faith is expressed in the Nicene Creed. We agree that worship is centered in the Eucharist, in which we receive Jesus Christ Himself. We agree that God has established in His Church the fourfold ministry of Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and the People of God. We agree on many other things...
The point is, there is remarkable unity on the essentials, precisely because God does choose to work in and through His Church, with all her faults. One means He has used, and continues to use to do so is Apostolic succession, which is both a succession of hands, faithful bishops to faithful bishops, and of Faith.
Peace be with you,
Michael
Given this, it is remarkable how similar the various Apostolic Churches actually are, after more than 2,000 years. We agree that the essence of our faith is expressed in the Nicene Creed. We agree that worship is centered in the Eucharist, in which we receive Jesus Christ Himself. We agree that God has established in His Church the fourfold ministry of Bishops, Priests, Deacons, and the People of God. We agree on many other things...
The point is, there is remarkable unity on the essentials, precisely because God does choose to work in and through His Church, with all her faults. One means He has used, and continues to use to do so is Apostolic succession, which is both a succession of hands, faithful bishops to faithful bishops, and of Faith.
Peace be with you,
Michael
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Anglian
let us love one another, for love is of God
Dear Forest,
As Michael has suggested, much depends upon what it is we agree upon, and whilst, being fallen sinners all, we have a well-developed (and loud) language in which to express our disagreements, we spend less time telling the world what we agree upon.
St. Paul pointed out that it was possible to have unity in diversity and diversity in unity; we sometimes lose sight of that. So fearful can we become of the idea of 'watering down' the Faith 'once given', that we shy away from anything that would look like syncretism. Yet the differences between us are probably not wider than those facing the Apostles over the issue of whether Gentiles should have to be subject to Jewish law, and whether justification was by faith or by works; they simply showed a little more humility and obedience to the Spirit.
We agree on so much: that Christ is Lord indeed; that He is the only-begotten Son of the Father; that the Spirit proceeds through Him, from the Father into our lives (even if we disagree on the exact procession of the Spirit); that salvation is from God through Him; that He rose from the dead on the third day; that we need to repent, turn from our sins and amend our lives in obedience with His will through His grace and our cooperation with Him.
Some may, at first sight, want to unpick that last paragraph, but I wonder how much of that is because we sometimes use the same language in different ways?
If we could recover St. Paul's sense that diversity of practice within the faith 'once received' is a sign of the richness of life in Christ, and if we could practice that love which Our Saviour called us to, and which St. Paul reminds us is a sign of the Spirit in us, we should do well.
We are, each of us (I hope) obedient to those set in authority above us who pronounce upon sound doctrine, and we must be guided by them; but we can also help guide them through the respect and love we show each for the other. I learn much here, and elsehwere, about the traditions of others, and the more I listen and learn, the more we seem to have in common.
We have the Risen Lord in common. If, like the Holy Apostles themselves, we do not always agree on some matters, then that is further proof of why Christ Jesus came into the world - to save sinners - of whom I am the chief.
In peace,
Anglian
As Michael has suggested, much depends upon what it is we agree upon, and whilst, being fallen sinners all, we have a well-developed (and loud) language in which to express our disagreements, we spend less time telling the world what we agree upon.
St. Paul pointed out that it was possible to have unity in diversity and diversity in unity; we sometimes lose sight of that. So fearful can we become of the idea of 'watering down' the Faith 'once given', that we shy away from anything that would look like syncretism. Yet the differences between us are probably not wider than those facing the Apostles over the issue of whether Gentiles should have to be subject to Jewish law, and whether justification was by faith or by works; they simply showed a little more humility and obedience to the Spirit.
We agree on so much: that Christ is Lord indeed; that He is the only-begotten Son of the Father; that the Spirit proceeds through Him, from the Father into our lives (even if we disagree on the exact procession of the Spirit); that salvation is from God through Him; that He rose from the dead on the third day; that we need to repent, turn from our sins and amend our lives in obedience with His will through His grace and our cooperation with Him.
Some may, at first sight, want to unpick that last paragraph, but I wonder how much of that is because we sometimes use the same language in different ways?
If we could recover St. Paul's sense that diversity of practice within the faith 'once received' is a sign of the richness of life in Christ, and if we could practice that love which Our Saviour called us to, and which St. Paul reminds us is a sign of the Spirit in us, we should do well.
We are, each of us (I hope) obedient to those set in authority above us who pronounce upon sound doctrine, and we must be guided by them; but we can also help guide them through the respect and love we show each for the other. I learn much here, and elsehwere, about the traditions of others, and the more I listen and learn, the more we seem to have in common.
We have the Risen Lord in common. If, like the Holy Apostles themselves, we do not always agree on some matters, then that is further proof of why Christ Jesus came into the world - to save sinners - of whom I am the chief.
In peace,
Anglian
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Albion
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Because Apostolic Succession doesn't GUARANTEE orthodoxy. It merely tends to make the bishop more likely to be well-grounded than if he were a self-starter...something like having a seminary graduate be your pastor instead of some fellow off the street claiming to have figured the Bible out by himself.
One other reason probably is in play. In the past, there was not separation of church and state and there were fewer churches and denominations. As a result, the idea worked more successfully than it may be doing today. After all, if a bishop is a rebel, there's nothing to stop him from starting up a new church in today's world, but that was very difficult to do in the past.
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Simon_Templar
Not all who wander are lost
I agree with what the others have said here.
I would point out that the agreement among the apostolic Churches is probably something like 99% You could count on one hand the actual doctrinal disagreements between all of them.
Further, I think those are getting less, hopefully.
People tend to focus on the disagreements that divide us, part of our nature I suppose. We often form our identity as much, or more by what we are not, than by what we are. This often, in my opinion, makes the disagreements between all Christians seem bigger than they are. Yet I would still say that there is significantly more agreement between the apostolic Churches than most other church groups. I have no doubt that this is because of the apostolic succession.
I would point out that the agreement among the apostolic Churches is probably something like 99% You could count on one hand the actual doctrinal disagreements between all of them.
Further, I think those are getting less, hopefully.
People tend to focus on the disagreements that divide us, part of our nature I suppose. We often form our identity as much, or more by what we are not, than by what we are. This often, in my opinion, makes the disagreements between all Christians seem bigger than they are. Yet I would still say that there is significantly more agreement between the apostolic Churches than most other church groups. I have no doubt that this is because of the apostolic succession.
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RestoreTheRiver
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Another historical factor, and I need to say this carefully, for the sake of love and unity, is the response of the church catholic to the protestant tendency to emphasis differences. That is to say, in the past 500 years, and perhaps especially in the past 200 years in the United States, various denominations, and local churches membered in the various denominations, were expected to emphasize what made them different, and "better than" the church across the street.
This expectation was picked up by many, if not most, of the communions of the church catholic, and, perhaps especially in the United States.
Happily, there is now a move of the Holy Spirit toward genuine unity, with a fresh emphasis on what we hold in common in many denominations, communions, and local churches; catholic and protestant alike.
Michael
This expectation was picked up by many, if not most, of the communions of the church catholic, and, perhaps especially in the United States.
Happily, there is now a move of the Holy Spirit toward genuine unity, with a fresh emphasis on what we hold in common in many denominations, communions, and local churches; catholic and protestant alike.
Michael
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