Apostle Paul

[Knockinghard]

Sometimes I get this thought. That Paul the whole time infiltrated the church to set up his own doctrine. Instead of killing Christians. He coverted them into the way he thinks. But thats just a thought that i get some times. Take it with a grain of salt because I dare not add to the word of God.

You may be partly right. No where Paul quotes any verses from the four books of the Gospel. His authority was questioned during his ministry. But for the strong support of Peter, his ministry would have gone unnoticed as it happened immediately after his conversion.

 

[RDKirk]

You may be partly right. No where Paul quotes any verses from the four books of the Gospel. His authority was questioned during his ministry. But for the strong support of Peter, his ministry would have gone unnoticed as it happened immediately after his conversion.

The only one that might have been available would have been Mark, and there isn't much evidence to determine how quickly that one might have been copied and distributed.

However, Paul does paraphrase Jesus, as he was probably taught by the other apostles.

I'm not sure what you mean about his ministry going unnoticed. Remember that there was a continuous Church in operation, and Paul's ministry was substantial enough on its own to make the Marcion heresy even possible.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

People take away from the bible exactly the place they are at; the openness in their heart to receive the pure truth of God will determine how they interpret the scriptures.

Does this verse prove to you that Paul had some kind of personal spite against Alexander? Most commentaries seem to agree that the verse should read "the Lord shall reward him according to his works", which reveals Pauls meaning to be centered in his knowledge of the Lords will and not some kind of vendetta. There is no proof Paul had not forgiven, or prayed for Alexander in any case.

The writings of Paul are scripture, just as the writings of Peter, or Luke or John or Jeremiah or Moses. His doctrine is perfect because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit. When we have trouble understanding something our recourse should be to ask God for revelation and not make assumptions about the author.

Paul wrote what he wrote at that time . just as Jeremiah wrote what he wrote at any particular time . Scripture is scripture .. but Jesus taught on scripture a hierarcy within the canon of truth . love seems to be king .

 

[Knockinghard]

The only one that might have been available would have been Mark, and there isn't much evidence to determine how quickly that one might have been copied and distributed.

However, Paul does paraphrase Jesus, as he was probably taught by the other apostles.

I'm not sure what you mean about his ministry going unnoticed. Remember that there was a continuous Church in operation, and Paul's ministry was substantial enough on its own to make the Marcion heresy even possible.

Paul misses concept of One Teacher, One Leader and One Father. He created the first division in Jerusalem Church.

Paul did preach immediately after his conversion near Damascus before he met the apostles. Nothing is recorded about his work over there.

There are only twelve apostles. Paul was a chosen vessel, not an apostle as claimed by him.

 

[dabro]

In 2 Peter. Peter talks about Paul as a Apostle so please He is one....He may have alot of his past in him. But he humbles himself a lot and he say's he is sorry for the crimes he commited against christians.

 

[RDKirk]

Paul misses concept of One Teacher, One Leader and One Father. He created the first division in Jerusalem Church.

Paul did preach immediately after his conversion near Damascus before he met the apostles. Nothing is recorded about his work over there.

There are only twelve apostles. Paul was a chosen vessel, not an apostle as claimed by him.

That's what I call Reverse-Marcionism. There's a lot of that going around today.

Interestingly, Paul's reputation in the 2nd century must have been extremely high for the Marcionist heresy to even take enough root--and those people were only one or two degrees (at most) removed from the apostles.

What reasoning do you use to deprecate Paul's ministry compared to them?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

12 apostles were more the fulfillment of the 12 tribes .

Paul was part of another prophecy that was a very important sign in that generation .

 

[classicalhero]

Paul wrote what he wrote at that time . just as Jeremiah wrote what he wrote at any particular time . Scripture is scripture .. but Jesus taught on scripture a hierarcy within the canon of truth . love seems to be king .

Yes, Jesus never ever rebuked anyone. You do realise that because Jesus loved the world, rebuke was part of things he had to do to show the wrongs of this world. If you love someone and they make bad decisions, you try and get them on the right path and tell them that right now they are on the way to destruction.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, Jesus never ever rebuked anyone. You do realise that because Jesus loved the world, rebuke was part of things he had to do to show the wrongs of this world. If you love someone and they make bad decisions, you try and get them on the right path and tell them that right now they are on the way to destruction.

I recall the only people Jesus rebuked to show his love were those who made an effort to appear religious .

 

[dabro]

No, He told Peter get the behind me satan. When Peter tried to say he didn't ever want Jesus to suffer. Jesus knew what He had to do in life and He wasn't going to let someone stop Him. Then there is the time when the disciples asked Jesus did He want them to bring fire down to some villages and again Jesus corrected them.

 

[Dean62]

Paul was commissioned to be the teacher of the Gentiles and I would no more turn away from accepting his teaching and striving to live as he lived than to cut off my own arm.

Wow Ted you nailed it for me! I loved this and will use it. "Paul was commissioned to be the teacher of the Gentiles"


dabro

He knew the OT before he received Christ so God had a special plan for him. He explains in great detail what it is like to be a true child of God. To growing up and chastisment. To not judging and to LOVE most of all. I think ppl just don't want to give up something that they are required of and it makes it hard for them to truly know the depth of being a disciple. Jesus alone is KING and He is the one to be made a example of. Paul only show's us the motions he went thru to get where he was.

He Knew the OT before he received Christ....I have never thought of it so simply and point blank. It makes his teachings that much more powerful. Thank you dabro.

Paul1149

And usually it is from people who don't understand the radical nature of the new covenant of grace, purchased by the precious blood of Christ. But now that the perfect Lamb has been slain, any attempts to establish our own righteousness by the law actually work against the cross.

Amen.

Norah63 thank you for starting this thread. It has fed me this morning.

When I was not a Christian growing up the idea of be good and go to heaven made sense to me and I was not going to Heaven. I have since talked to other non Christians who believe there is no way God could love them based on their own actions. When I first started looking at Christianity the justification by faith threw me off. How could justification by faith and Grace possibly be when the world revolved around me? Certainly my actions were critical to making God happy or, in my case as I believed, not. It took me more then a couple of years of praying and reading before the simplicity of Grace made sense. I was extremely hard headed and stubborn. To let go of the law and accept Jesus is abandon self and the idea that I have control. The only use of free will is to surrender to His will.

Paul helped me to understand this simple truth. The book of Galatians really opened my eyes and keeps me focused on Jesus. He really is a teacher to us "Gentiles" and the message he teaches is trust everything to Jesus.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No, He told Peter get the behind me satan. When Peter tried to say he didn't ever want Jesus to suffer. Jesus knew what He had to do in life and He wasn't going to let someone stop Him. Then there is the time when the disciples asked Jesus did He want them to bring fire down to some villages and again Jesus corrected them.

exactly, they were taking on a religious appearance there as well .

 

[thesunisout]

Paul wrote what he wrote at that time . just as Jeremiah wrote what he wrote at any particular time . Scripture is scripture .. but Jesus taught on scripture a hierarcy within the canon of truth . love seems to be king .

Yes, and Jesus said if you love me you will obey me. God never separates His holiness from His love. Why do you think Jesus had to die on the cross? It's because He will not pardon sin apart from the substitutionary atonement.

 

[thesunisout]

I recall the only people Jesus rebuked to show his love were those who made an effort to appear religious .

Luke 13:1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luke 13:2 And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, and Jesus said if you love me you will obey me. God never separates His holiness from His love. Why do you think Jesus had to die on the cross? It's because He will not pardon sin apart from the substitutionary atonement.

Holyness is an adjective of God

Love is an inner attribute of God .

And to obey means to love .

to equate obeying to the will is to make it a sinful thing .

without trust it is impossible to please him .

Luke 13:1 There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
Luke 13:2 And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way?
Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Well then those who attend church should pay heed how church history has mimicked this histories of Israel even up to the divided kingdom .

 

[thesunisout]

Holyness is an adjective of God

And to obey means to love .

to equate obeying to the will is to make it a sinful thing .

The love of God is to obey Him:

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Holyness is an adjective of God

Love is an inner attribute of God .

without trust it is impossible to please him .

Here is how Thomas Watson described it:

"God is intrinsically holy. All he does is holy; he cannot act but like himself; he can no more do an unrighteous action than the sun can turn dark. He is the original and pattern of holiness. It began with him who is the Ancient of Days. God is perfectly, unalterably, and unchangeably holy."

It is not simply an adjective, it is His very nature. This is the reason for the cross, and this is the reason the four living creatures surrounding His throne cry out Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come:

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Well then those who attend church should pay heed how church history has mimicked this histories of Israel even up to the divided kingdom .

No argument here.

 

[PBA]

Paul was called as the main apostle to the Gentiles (non-Jews) where Peter was mainly an apostle to the Jews. Apostle means one who is sent forth. I'm grateful for all the Bible and for every follower of Christ. Paul's letters in the Bible are especially special to me, as a Gentile. The book of Romans and Paul's other letters clear up a lot of confusion for me. Paul's revelations are treasures I wouldn't want to be without. The same with Peter's and all the others. Collectively these members of Christ help me to follow Christ and inherit eternal life.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The love of God is to obey Him:

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

that's because there's only two commandments . and they're all about the same thing. 1st John does not refer to the mosaic law.

Here is how Thomas Watson described it:

"God is intrinsically holy. All he does is holy; he cannot act but like himself; he can no more do an unrighteous action than the sun can turn dark. He is the original and pattern of holiness. It began with him who is the Ancient of Days. God is perfectly, unalterably, and unchangeably holy."

It is not simply an adjective, it is His very nature. This is the reason for the cross, and this is the reason the four living creatures surrounding His throne cry out Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come:

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

i recall a passage in the OT prophets where God was conscripting an unclean spirit to lie in the mouth of the prophets so as to lead a King to his demise. Is this acceptable behavior for saints?

No argument here.

 

[thesunisout]

that's because there's only two commandments . and they're all about the same thing. 1st John does not refer to the mosaic law.

Where is the passage which states there are only two commandments? The law and the prophets hang on the two greatest commandments, but that doesn't mean they are the only commandments we have. The law is referring to the law under the Old Covenant. We are under a New Covenant and we are under the law of Christ:

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

There are literally hundreds of things the word of God tells us to do or not to do in the New Testament, through Jesus and His disciples.

i recall a passage in the OT prophets where God was conscripting an unclean spirit to lie in the mouth of the prophets so as to lead a King to his demise. Is this acceptable behavior for saints?

Is your problem then that you don't believe the word of God? Are you saying God didn't really do that? God uses Satan to accomplish His will, as we see in Job. He allowed Satan to test Job, just as He allowed Satan to test the disciples:

Luke 22:31-32

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers"

Jesus also describes how Satan was allowed to throw some saints into prison and that they be faithful unto death:

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The God of the Old Testament is the same God as the New Testament. You would have to selectively read the New Testament to come to any other conclusion.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Where is the passage which states there are only two commandments? The law and the prophets hang on the two greatest commandments, but that doesn't mean they are the only commandments we have. The law is referring to the law under the Old Covenant. We are under a New Covenant and we are under the law of Christ:

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

There are literally hundreds of things the word of God tells us to do or not to do in the New Testament, through Jesus and His disciples.



Is your problem then that you don't believe the word of God? Are you saying God didn't really do that? God uses Satan to accomplish His will, as we see in Job. He allowed Satan to test Job, just as He allowed Satan to test the disciples:

Luke 22:31-32

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers"

Jesus also describes how Satan was allowed to throw some saints into prison and that they be faithful unto death:

Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

The God of the Old Testament is the same God as the New Testament. You would have to selectively read the New Testament to come to any other conclusion.

Romans 13

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

This is the Mary Martha thing. Martha was worried about many things .. but as Jesus said .. only one thing is necessary. that that thing is the one thing that the law is summed up by.