Apostates and why they apostasize

Rescued One · Jun 1, 2005

fatboys said:
If you are fighting against the church, the animosity was there before. The Lord just discribes what these people are. If this hurts your feelings, then perhaps you should rethink what you are doing.

Surprise! My feelings aren't hurt at all. It doesn't mean that my head is the sand and that I don't know anything about LDS attitudes towards ex-LDS.

fatboys · Jun 2, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
Surprise! My feelings aren't hurt at all. It doesn't mean that my head is the sand and that I don't know anything about LDS attitudes towards ex-LDS.

You bring out of Context a statement made in revelation to Joseph Smith that those who fight against the truth are in sin. And then say no wonder Ex LDS have animosity towards LDS. First off very few ex LDS have ever read much of what the Lord has revealed to Joseph Smith, let alone be offended by it. Second you say that LDS are trying to become mainstream christian, yet you have to bring quotes which reaffirm that we believe this was a restoration, and that fighing against God is wrong. Then you say this is wrong for us to do this. If we are right, then what you are doing is wrong as well.

Jason of Wyoming · Jun 2, 2005

First off very few ex LDS have ever read much of what the Lord has revealed to Joseph Smith, let alone be offended by it.

Im sure you have proof to back up this claim fatboys?

Rescued One · Jun 2, 2005

fatboys said:
You bring out of Context a statement made in revelation to Joseph Smith that those who fight against the truth are in sin. And then say no wonder Ex LDS have animosity towards LDS. First off very few ex LDS have ever read much of what the Lord has revealed to Joseph Smith, let alone be offended by it. Second you say that LDS are trying to become mainstream christian, yet you have to bring quotes which reaffirm that we believe this was a restoration, and that fighing against God is wrong. Then you say this is wrong for us to do this. If we are right, then what you are doing is wrong as well.

Since you want to put words in my mouth, I suggest you use the quote feature instead of totally misquoting me.

Rescued One · Jun 2, 2005

Boyd K. Packer (Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles)
At October 1996 General Conference, in a sermon entitled, "The Twelve Apostles," Packer warned:

Some few within the Church, openly or perhaps far worse, in the darkness of anonymity, reproach their leaders in the wards and stakes and the Church, seeking to make them "an offender for a word," [Isaiah 29:21; see also 2 Nephi 27:32] as Isaiah said. To them the Lord said, "Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

"But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves . . .

"Because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

"Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

"They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation." [D&C 121: 16-17, 19 21]

That terrible penalty will not apply to those who try as best they can to live the gospel and sustain their leaders. Nor need it apply to those who in the past have been guilty of indifference or even opposition, if they will repent and confess their transgressions, and forsake them.[See D&C 58:43]

christopher123 · Jun 2, 2005

GWIT,

Have you, like me, been designated by the LDS church a "servant of sin who serves another master"?

Or as the apologists say, are you just intellectually beneath the good LDS members?

Chris <><

Rescued One · Jun 2, 2005

fatboys said:
If you are fighting against the church, the animosity was there before. The Lord just discribes what these people are. If this hurts your feelings, then perhaps you should rethink what you are doing.

I decided to read this again and try to really figure out what you are saying. Are you trying to say I was angry at the LDS before they were at me? Or do you mean I hated them before they hated me? If that's what you're saying, you did a poor job of expressing it. Because I spoke of the LDS's animosity towards ex-LDS being based on the teaching that we are "the servants of sin." I've never hated LDS. As a matter of fact, I probably had the best hometeachers in our ward when I left. They may have been the best hometeachers in the whole church for all I know. I have no animosity towards LDS.

Rescued One · Jun 2, 2005

christopher123 said:
GWIT,

Have you, like me, been designated by the LDS church a "servant of sin who serves another master"?

Or as the apologists say, are you just intellectually beneath the good LDS members?

Chris <><

"Intellectually beneath" the good LDS members? I never heard that one! Oh, my....I guess that's the problem.

christopher123 · Jun 2, 2005

GodsWordisTrue said:
"Intellectually beneath" the good LDS members? I never heard that one! Oh, my....I guess that's the problem.

Maybe you just wanted to sin or were offended. I didn't fall into into either one of those classes, so I guess I'm just not as smart as the "good" mormons.

Chris <><

Doc T · Jun 2, 2005

Casiopeia said:
Then they are making a grave mistake. For something can be learnt from those who leave. I am not advocating Chris that all LDS must leave their faith. I am sure you figured that out by now...but I think that should they chose to stay it should be with their eyes open. Or one day ...they might hear something that shakes them so badly that they are hurt beyond any hope of having any faith in anything. Kinda like me. Though I am recovering.

I wouldn't take it personally when someone thinks they are more clever than you are...that is just insecurity speaking.

Casi

Casi as I was reading this and other posts of yours the thought struck me, You have left the LDS church so what Christian church do you belong to now.

Doc

~

Cassiopeia · Jun 2, 2005

Doc T said:
Casi as I was reading this and other posts of yours the thought struck me, You have left the LDS church so what Christian church do you belong to now.

Doc

~

Hello Doc

I don't belong to any church right now...Christian or otherwise. Good observation

Casi (impressed someone noticed)

RufustheRed · Jun 2, 2005

fatboys said:
You bring out of Context a statement made in revelation to Joseph Smith that those who fight against the truth are in sin. And then say no wonder Ex LDS have animosity towards LDS. First off very few ex LDS have ever read much of what the Lord has revealed to Joseph Smith, let alone be offended by it. Second you say that LDS are trying to become mainstream christian, yet you have to bring quotes which reaffirm that we believe this was a restoration, and that fighing against God is wrong. Then you say this is wrong for us to do this. If we are right, then what you are doing is wrong as well.

If you were not LDS, but claimed to be a Christian, what would you think of this quote? "Baptism performed by anyone other than an authorized member of the Church is meaningless, and perhaps worse, it is counterfeit."

Do you think that is a justifiable basis for animosity against the religion of Joseph Smith, Jr.?

Ol' Sven

A New Dawn · Jun 2, 2005

Sven1967 said:
If you were not LDS, but claimed to be a Christian, what would you think of this quote? "Baptism performed by anyone other than an authorized member of the Church is meaningless, and perhaps worse, it is counterfeit."

Do you think that is a justifiable basis for animosity against the religion of Joseph Smith, Jr.?

Ol' Sven

Personally, I don't see it as any different than what the OC's say about the LDS, or JW's, or me, for that matter. Y'all claim that orthodoxy is the only way to heaven, so what's the diff?

gort · Jun 2, 2005

Now now now.....orthodoxy is not the way to heaven, only Jesus is.

<><

RufustheRed · Jun 2, 2005

fatboys said:
...First off very few ex LDS have ever read much of what the Lord has revealed to Joseph Smith, let alone be offended by it.

What is the foundation for your facts regarding what former LDS members have read. Is there a study that you can reference or are you just running your jaw before engaging your brain. I have an opinion, but I anxiously await your response.

Secondly, most former LDS members that I know would deny that the Lord revealed anything to Mr. Smith, no matter how much one had read Smith's writings.

Ol' Sven

RufustheRed · Jun 2, 2005

Jenda said:
Personally, I don't see it as any different than what the OC's say about the LDS, or JW's, or me, for that matter. Y'all claim that orthodoxy is the only way to heaven, so what's the diff?

You have had orthodox Christians tell you that you HAD to be baptized by their particular denomination to spend eternity with God? I know that the LDS believe that, but as a Evangelical Christian, I do not, nor do I believe that it is supported by scripture.

Anyway, that wasn't the question, was it? Would this be considered benefical for ecumenical discourse? "Baptism performed by anyone other than an authorized member of the Church is meaningless, and perhaps worse, it is counterfeit."

Isn't that what the UTs want to happen here?

Sven

A New Dawn · Jun 2, 2005

daneel said:
Now now now.....orthodoxy is not the way to heaven, only Jesus is.

<><

I think everyone here, whether orthodox or unorthodox, agrees with that statement, Daneel. The point I was making is that many OC's have stated here, many times, even today, that the UC does not know the true Christ, and so therefore we will not be saved.

And Sven, I agree with you, that that statement is not conducive to "ecumenical discourse", however, equally offensive statements have been made about other religions/sects/cults by OC, which, also, do not pave the way for "ecumenical discourse". I have been told that if I were really Christian that I would rise above these petty barbs and add worthwhile dialogue to the conversation. Of course, I was told that because I am unorthodox, but what interests me is that the same admonishment is not given to the "real" Christians. It is OK for them to cast barbs, but we have to rise above it in order to "prove" we are really Christian.

Zippythepinhead · Jun 3, 2005

fatboys said:
You bring out of Context a statement made in revelation to Joseph Smith that those who fight against the truth are in sin. And then say no wonder Ex LDS have animosity towards LDS. First off very few ex LDS have ever read much of what the Lord has revealed to Joseph Smith, let alone be offended by it. Second you say that LDS are trying to become mainstream christian, yet you have to bring quotes which reaffirm that we believe this was a restoration, and that fighing against God is wrong. Then you say this is wrong for us to do this. If we are right, then what you are doing is wrong as well.

Just a note here. Not all apostates stay "ex mormons". I know of two that are returning or have since returned to the LDS faith. Both apostatized for various reasons, and both came back. Just a note some early LDS leaders also apostatized and later returned to the LDS Church. Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris are some examples.

Rescued One · Jun 3, 2005

Jenda said:
I think everyone here, whether orthodox or unorthodox, agrees with that statement, Daneel. The point I was making is that the OC's have stated here, many times, even today, that the UC does not know the true Christ, and so therefore we will not be saved.

And Sven, I agree with you, that that statement is not conducive to "ecumenical discourse", however, equally offensive statements have been made about other religions/sects/cults by OC, which, also, do not pave the way for "ecumenical discourse". I have been told that if I were really Christian that I would rise above these petty barbs and add worthwhile dialogue to the conversation. Of course, I was told that because I am unorthodox, but what interests me is that the same admonishment is not given to the "real" Christians. It is OK for them to cast barbs, but we have to rise above it in order to "prove" we are really Christian.

I hear UTs making these complaints, but for some reason unknown to me, they don't post links to the comments they claim have been made.

RufustheRed · Jun 3, 2005

Zippythepinhead said:
Just a note here. Not all apostates stay "ex mormons". I know of two that are returning or have since returned to the LDS faith. Both apostatized for various reasons, and both came back. Just a note some early LDS leaders also apostatized and later returned to the LDS Church. Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris are some examples.

Sort of like when I left orthodoxy to become LDS and later left Mormondom to return to orthodoxy. I was an apostate for joining the LDS by was later re-instated into orthodoxy post LDS membership. Good point, Zippy.

Ol' Sven, Lars & Leana's best friend

Apostates and why they apostasize

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Veteran

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Veteran

Senior Veteran

Otherwise Occupied

Disabled Veteran

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

pedantric

Disabled Veteran

Disabled Veteran

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Contributor

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Disabled Veteran

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency