Actually it is LDS doctorine that Baptism in water by immersion has been done since Adam. This Doctorine comes from modern day revelation, more particulaly Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price.ZealouS said:
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Actually it is LDS doctorine that Baptism in water by immersion has been done since Adam. This Doctorine comes from modern day revelation, more particulaly Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price.ZealouS said:So all you people who think that baptism is a requirment tell me something. Where do you think Moses, David, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiah and all the OT prophets and leaders are going to be if baptism is a commandment? The answer is simple. Baptism is symbolic of your old self dying and your new self emmerging from the water. It is also symbolic of the ressurection. True baptism comes from within. None of the OT prophets were baptized by immmersion in water to my knowledge and yet do you think they are not going to enter into the Kingdom of God?
The "baptism" is to be baptized of the Spirit. Baptism of water is only a confirmation of one's belief, but is not a requirement. If you continue reading John Chapter 3, you'll see it written 4 times that if one believes in Christ, they will be saved.Jenda said:Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he that believeth not, shall be damned.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
John 3:1-5
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Agreed. However, without first believing, the "greatest two" and any others, are meaningless to the non-believer.Those aren't the only two, those are the greatest two.
What does this mean to you? To me, this sums up anything and everything that is ever preached from hereon out by Jesus or any of the Apostles. God didn't want a bunch of legalistic laws to keep His children from coming to Him. He wanted to make it easy. And it is. As easy as ABC.Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
In context, what was it that Jesus was commanding? All it said was to have faith in Him, believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they (the Apostles) will be able to perform miracles as Jesus had done if they ask in Jesus' name. I see nowhere in that Scripture passage that His "commandments" is relating to baptism.John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jesus tells us that the greatest commandment is to love Him. Then He tells us that if we love Him, we must keep all His commandments. Baptism is one of His commandments.
Well said, ZealouS!ZealouS said:So all you people who think that baptism is a requirment tell me something. Where do you think Moses, David, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Daniel, Ezekiel, Isiah and all the OT prophets and leaders are going to be if baptism is a commandment? The answer is simple. Baptism is symbolic of your old self dying and your new self emmerging from the water. It is also symbolic of the ressurection. True baptism comes from within. None of the OT prophets were baptized by immmersion in water to my knowledge and yet do you think they are not going to enter into the Kingdom of God?
Which just goes to show that there's one more piece of your doctrine that cannot be Biblically supported.ST:DS9 said:Actually it is LDS doctorine that Baptism in water by immersion has been done since Adam. This Doctorine comes from modern day revelation, more particulaly Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price.
Ya, I know.Fit4Christ said:Which just goes to show that there's one more piece of your doctrine that cannot be Biblically supported.
The law of Moses mentions no such thing as baptism. We know that that law has not changed because of how the Jews have preserved the original text for a very long time. Nothing was left out of the law. Please dont use that LDS argument about the temple wash basin. It was for the priests to wash their hands and feet with before they could inter into the temple/tabernacle/holiest of holies.ST:DS9 said:Actually it is LDS doctorine that Baptism in water by immersion has been done since Adam. This Doctorine comes from modern day revelation, more particulaly Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price.
Apex said:I would like to know what everyones views are on the apostasy.
Do you belive there has been, will be, or never will be an apostasy and a restoration of the Church and why?
Thanks ahead of time!
But when I did a search on google, I find non-lds sites talking about Baptism before Christ.ZealouS said:The law of Moses mentions no such thing as baptism. We know that that law has not changed because of how the Jews have preserved the original text for a very long time. Nothing was left out of the law. Please dont use that LDS argument about the temple wash basin. It was for the priests to wash their hands and feet with before they could inter into the temple/tabernacle/holiest of holies.
We know that there was baptism before Christ (why do you think they called John the "baptist"?).ST:DS9 said:But when I did a search on google, I find non-lds sites talking about Baptism before Christ.
But I know that the OT doesn't talk about Baptism. I was just answering his question. In modern day revelation we learned that even Adam was baptized.
You can find my answer to that with in the "Ignored Evidence of the Book of Mormon" thread. It is in the last few pages and it is pertaining to gaining a witness from the Holy Spirit.Fit4Christ said:Then why believe in it???
That is not what it says. It says, Except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.Fit4Christ said:John 3:1-5
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The "baptism" is to be baptized of the Spirit. Baptism of water is only a confirmation of one's belief, but is not a requirement.
So saying it 4 times makes it 4 times as important?If you continue reading John Chapter 3, you'll see it written 4 times that if one believes in Christ, they will be saved.
Doesn't say anything about baptism. FYI, I do believe being baptized is important. I just don't believe it's a requirement to get into heaven.
Sorry, but that is like a Duh! statement. Or maybe it all hinges on love. We don't even have to believe. We can just love God and others and be saved because they are the two greatest commandments?Agreed. However, without first believing, the "greatest two" and any others, are meaningless to the non-believer.
Matthew 22:34-40
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
What does this mean to you? To me, this sums up anything and everything that is ever preached from hereon out by Jesus or any of the Apostles. God didn't want a bunch of legalistic laws to keep His children from coming to Him. He wanted to make it easy. And it is. As easy as ABC.
I read it. Don't understand it. You want to believe everything by the Holy Spirit, by a "feeling", but do not want to confirm your beliefs by the Bible (or the bom, as you also stated).ST:DS9 said:You can find my answer to that with in the "Ignored Evidence of the Book of Mormon" thread. It is in the last few pages and it is pertaining to gaining a witness from the Holy Spirit.
If one were to go on feelings alone, that person can and will be deceived. God gave us His word to confirm these "feelings" as you call them. At the same time, one does not need to rely on the factual proof of the Bible, either. Rather, the two go hand in hand. Reading the Bible for a non-believer is meaningless, unless the Holy Spirit is leading that person to Christ.Because I rely on the Holy Spirit to confirm it to me. No wisdom, knowledge, or evidence of man will ever convine me that Jesus is the Messiah the Savior, that the Bible is the Word of God, that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. The only thing that has convined me that these things are true is through the Holy Spirit which testified it to me. Fruits of the Holy Spirit are feelings. It is only through the Holy Spirit can one gain faith.
It does not say baptized by water, either. "Except a man be born of water " is referring to being physically born. Continuing on in the passage it says in verse 6 :"6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." IOW, we are physically born, then we are spiritually "born again".Jenda said:That is not what it says. It says, Except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
Yes, for those of you who just don't get it. Why would Jesus continually preach about love, forgiveness, and believing in Him as the way to His Father's Kingdom if such topics were not important to Him?So saying it 4 times makes it 4 times as important?
Why do you try to make it more complicated than it is? Baptism is flat out NOT a requirement for entrance into God's kingdom. For proof, Jesus himself told the thief next to him on the cross that he would be saved. The thief hadn't been baptised. He only believed in Jesus. That's how simple it is.Your statement is a strawman argument. The statement about believing in Christ in no way invalidates the commandment about baptism.
Nope. You just have to believe. The rest will follow.Sorry, but that is like a Duh! statement. Or maybe it all hinges on love. We don't even have to believe. We can just love God and others and be saved because they are the two greatest commandments?
Excellent. Then how does "baptism" relate to love? Believe in Christ, love God, love your neighbors. Easy.What verse 40 above means to me is that all the laws given in the past had love at the basis of them. That God gave these laws for man because He loved us.
No, you have taken Scripture out of context to mean what your belief system wants it to believe. Baptism is not a requirement.You provided contexts that said to believe in Jesus as the Son of God and be saved, I provided contexts that said belief in Jesus as the Son of God coupled with baptism is the way to be saved.
Christ did not baptise His followers with water. He baptized them with the Holy Spirit, the "Living Water". Big difference. I'll go with that.Christ, himself, was baptized, Christ baptized his followers. Christ commanded us to be baptized. I'll go with that.
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