Apostasy?

MormonFriend · Sep 8, 2004

I am getting spread really thin with responses, and wish I had the means to respond back to all. Please bear with my limitations.

Zeddicus said:
MF said:

Where do you think a true understanding of Scripture comes from? This is the backbone of my evidence! Scripture is a "thing of God." The things of God are understood by the Spirit of God."
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 2:11)

Click to expand...

You misunderstand me. I agree that true understanding comes from the Spirit. What I am saying is that just because, on certain doctrines unessential to salvation, some people have yet to have the true understanding of what the correct doctrine revealed to them yet does not make them apostate, simply just not as knowledgable as another as of yet.

First of all, who determined what doctrines are essential and which are not? Since I am talking about the possibility that doctrines are misunderstood, because of a lack of the Spirit's guidance, we cannot dismiss the fact that these "essential" issues may be incorrect.

It is indeed normal for some, perhaps many people to misunderstand. That is why God placed individuals in position and authority to teach and minister to their needs. And not so much to teach them doctrine by doctrine, but how to receive first hand from the Spirit, the knowledge and mysteries of God. That is verified when they see eye to eye.

A teacher once began the class by laying out the basic rules. "My job is to teach, your job is to learn. If any of you finish your job before I finish mine, please advise me." This is what has happened. People are not apostate because they understand incorrectly, but when they leave the source of learning because they disagree on the things of God, that is apostasy to me. That is unless the teacher really was wrong, but where would that leave the student? God would have to designate His authorized teachers again.

But we still come back to the immutable point. Those who broke away from the original authorized teacher did not gain their understanding from the same Spirit as did the teacher. Those who have spilt again and again from the original division are not of one accord, so they are not inspirired, directed, or taught by the same spirit. It is absolutely obvious that the spirit of man is the only source of any division.
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

If the original teacher who was authorized by God cannot be found, then nobody has the right to speak for and to represent His Church, unless God restores this order. Otherwise there will be perpetual chaos.

MormonFriend · Sep 8, 2004

Zeddicus said:
MF said:

The fact that many understood God's doctrines and precepts differently (and divided as a result) can only conclude that all but possibly "one" were wrong and did not have the Spirit to understand.

Click to expand...

No it does not conclude that all the rest lacked the Spirit, just that they got caught up in the flesh, which inherently does not make one an apostate, just in need of some guidance. Just because you maybe wrong about say issues like predestination or whether or not the rapture will happen does not inherently make you apostate, just incorrect about certain doctrines.

This doesn't make sense to me. We know and agree that understanding is given by the Spirit. When someone understands contrary, they certainly did not gain that incorrect concept from the Spirit of God. And you say: "it does not conclude that all the rest lacked the Spirit ..." Then from whence did they get their understanding?

Now this is really helpful as to why we see things differently. You stated the reason they did not understand was: " ...just that they got caught up in the flesh." To LDS, getting caught up in the flesh is to grieve the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.(Romans 8:5 - 7)

To me, that is the reason for what Job said:
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

(Job 28:28)

Job understood that without the Spirit, one cannot understand. Also he understood that when we act on evil precepts, we grieve the Spirit so understanding is severed. But when we deny ourselves of ungodliness, we "mind" the things of the Spirit, and understanding is pure. Where multiple understandings on same issues exist, understanding is not pure and did not come from the Spirit of God.

RufustheRed · Sep 14, 2004

MormonFriend said:
To me, that is the reason for what Job said:
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Job 28:28, Job understood that without the Spirit, one cannot understand. Also he understood that when we act on evil precepts, we grieve the Spirit so understanding is severed. But when we deny ourselves of ungodliness, we "mind" the things of the Spirit, and understanding is pure. Where multiple understandings on same issues exist, understanding is not pure and did not come from the Spirit of God.

Again with your mantra. No where in this passage does Job or the writer of Job mention the Holy Spirit. You try so hard to streeeeech this passage to mean so many things to you that you lose context of what it is saying. I have already discssed this passage with you, albeit, I don't remember a response from you, so don't bother to invite my thoughts again. I don't enjoy chewing my cabbage twice. Read the passage, the entire chapter, the entire book if you have to or even the entire Bible to gain a proper context of this one verse that you love to use so much. Do misuse it to justify any and all things Mormon that you feel you have accomplished on the spiritual level. It gets old - almost as old as I am

MormonFriend · Sep 14, 2004

Sven1967 said:
Again with your mantra. No where in this passage does Job or the writer of Job mention the Holy Spirit. You try so hard to streeeeech this passage to mean so many things to you that you lose context of what it is saying. I have already discssed this passage with you, albeit, I don't remember a response from you, so don't bother to invite my thoughts again. I don't enjoy chewing my cabbage twice. Read the passage, the entire chapter, the entire book if you have to or even the entire Bible to gain a proper context of this one verse that you love to use so much. Do misuse it to justify any and all things Mormon that you feel you have accomplished on the spiritual level. It gets old - almost as old as I am

Actually, it is in the context of the "whole Bible" (and the Book of Mormon) that I derive my reasoning. And most important, which you missed in your line up of things to search, is to search my heart and listen to what the Spirit teaches me. We are told:
So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; (Proverbs 2:2)

I believe that too many people get hung up on interpeting every word and punctuation mark, assuming that every writer was a language major and had a "degree". So then we have double jeopardy in trusting the literacy of the writer, and the scholarship of the interpreter. Is it any wonder that the Lord told us the real way to understand is by the Holy Ghost? With this plan there is double safety. We not only get the truth, but we become united in our understanding and become one people, one heart, and like minded, .... as was the original purpose in the early Church.

And I don't enjoy cabbage the first time. (except when cooked with corn beef)

stauron · Sep 14, 2004

MormonFriend said:
Actually, it is in the context of the "whole Bible" (and the Book of Mormon) that I derive my reasoning. And most important, which you missed in your line up of things to search, is to search my heart and listen to what the Spirit teaches me. We are told:
So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; (Proverbs 2:2)

I believe that too many people get hung up on interpeting every word and punctuation mark, assuming that every writer was a language major and had a "degree". So then we have double jeopardy in trusting the literacy of the writer, and the scholarship of the interpreter. Is it any wonder that the Lord told us the real way to understand is by the Holy Ghost? With this plan there is double safety. We not only get the truth, but we become united in our understanding and become one people, one heart, and like minded, .... as was the original purpose in the early Church.

Well, the Spirit certainly will not lead us contrary to the Word. Every cult and charismatic leader claims that they have feeling/intuition/emotional rightness because what they do feels good or is satisfying or powerful.

Thankfully Jeremiah helped us out:

17:9 The human mind is more deceitful than anything else.

It is incurably bad. Who can understand it?

17:10 I, the Lord, probe into peoples minds.

I examine peoples hearts.

This version translates the Hebrew idioms "heart" as intellect or mind and "kidneys" as emotions or what we call heart.

The point is that men are bent from the start and can't be trusted, especially by their ownselves.

Therefore we need an objective, external standard that can measure our hearts, emotions, intellect and will.

Hmm, somewhat coincedently, God provided that by giving us scripture...

And regardless of the instrument that God used to record His word, the word is perfect and is reliable, which can't be said of any man. This is especially apparent in the multiple places where Jesus and Paul build complex arguments over minor grammatical points. So go ahead and rely on the very thing that is called decietful and incurable, but as for me and my house...

So, back to the OP anyone care to comment on the verses in 1 John that actually deal with the subject?

2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. We know from this that it is the last hour. 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But they went out from us to demonstrate that all of them do not belong to us

Zeddicus · Sep 14, 2004

MormonFriend said:
First of all, who determined what doctrines are essential and which are not? Since I am talking about the possibility that doctrines are misunderstood, because of a lack of the Spirit's guidance, we cannot dismiss the fact that these "essential" issues may be incorrect.

But this is exactly where we come up to a brick wall..Jesus himself spelled out which doctrines are essential to salvation in His Word..believe in Christ and you will be saved...simple as that. Though I will not say that there are things that God commands his followers to do, but they do not do a single thing to save you.

It is indeed normal for some, perhaps many people to misunderstand. That is why God placed individuals in position and authority to teach and minister to their needs. And not so much to teach them doctrine by doctrine, but how to receive first hand from the Spirit, the knowledge and mysteries of God. That is verified when they see eye to eye.

I agree, though with the proviso that one only need to be correct on issues essential to salvation to have the Spirit. God will reveal where we are wrong on other issues in His own time and His own way, all he asks is for us to have faith in Him and then once we do, to simply follow His guidance.

A teacher once began the class by laying out the basic rules. "My job is to teach, your job is to learn. If any of you finish your job before I finish mine, please advise me." This is what has happened. People are not apostate because they understand incorrectly, but when they leave the source of learning because they disagree on the things of God, that is apostasy to me. That is unless the teacher really was wrong, but where would that leave the student? God would have to designate His authorized teachers again.

And the point is, does this, in your mind, truly and inherently prove true for Christianity?

If so provide historical facts to back the statement up...

But we still come back to the immutable point. Those who broke away from the original authorized teacher did not gain their understanding from the same Spirit as did the teacher.

And who was this?

Those who have spilt again and again from the original division are not of one accord, so they are not inspirired, directed, or taught by the same spirit. It is absolutely obvious that the spirit of man is the only source of any division.

This is obviously refering to Protestants...

I agree that in men did start getting into the flesh in certain ways during the Reformation, but that is not the same as cutting themselves off from the Spirit or from God. They disagreed on certain doctrines, yes, but they still came together, at heart, about Salvation.

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

If the original teacher who was authorized by God cannot be found, then nobody has the right to speak for and to represent His Church, unless God restores this order. Otherwise there will be perpetual chaos.

You are misconstruing Paul's statement here. He is not saying the disagreements denote a lack of the Spirit here. He is simply exhorting them to not let their disagreements over minor things prevent them from uniting together and presenting the Gospel to the world.

This doesn't make sense to me. We know and agree that understanding is given by the Spirit. When someone understands contrary, they certainly did not gain that incorrect concept from the Spirit of God. And you say: "it does not conclude that all the rest lacked the Spirit ..." Then from whence did they get their understanding?

I am not saying that what they are saying is the true doctrine (when referencing minor/nonessential doctrines) that the Spirit has to reveal to them. What I am saying is that just because the true doctrine has yet to be revealed to them, for whatever reason, does not denote a lack of the Spirit, just that the Spirit has yet to reveal it to them and they just have to continue studying and learning until the time God sees fot to reveal it to them.

Now this is really helpful as to why we see things differently. You stated the reason they did not understand was: " ...just that they got caught up in the flesh." To LDS, getting caught up in the flesh is to grieve the Spirit.

Matter of definition of terminology difference, when this term has been used by everyone that I know it means you are simply stumbling or have lost focus for a bit. You are still saved, and have not left God, you are simply in a rut and need to work to get out of it.

Job understood that without the Spirit, one cannot understand. Also he understood that when we act on evil precepts, we grieve the Spirit so understanding is severed. But when we deny ourselves of ungodliness, we "mind" the things of the Spirit, and understanding is pure. Where multiple understandings on same issues exist, understanding is not pure and did not come from the Spirit of God.

And what I am saying is that God will reveal things in His own time. Lack of perfect understanding does not denote either apostasy or a lack of the Spirit, just that God has not revealed it unto the person yet.

Apex · Sep 14, 2004

Zeddicus said:
I agree that in men did start getting into the flesh in certain ways during the Reformation, but that is not the same as cutting themselves off from the Spirit or from God. They disagreed on certain doctrines, yes, but they still came together, at heart, about Salvation.

Do you mean different religions? If so could you please state which ones you belive agree on the doctrines about salvation.

Zeddicus · Sep 14, 2004

Apex said:
Do you mean different religions? If so could you please state which ones you belive agree on the doctrines about salvation.

By religions do you mean denominations of Christianity or actual religions?

I am going to assume to former, but please correct me if I am misinterpreting you.

Well, personally, I would say that most Protestant Churches (like Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians...I am sure you get the point, so I will continue on with the point), The Catholic Church, Orthodox....and some that do not come to mind right now..

But I am assuming that with this your aim is to find out my opinions on Mormonism on this matter...

My opinion is that Mormonism is incorrect as far as their doctrines about salvation, Biblically speaking. Not only that, but the simple fact is that Mormonism and Christianity really do worship two different Gods, as well as extremely different versions of Christ, and hence can not really be equated as being the same religion despite the fact that both use the same names for their Supreme Being(s) and similar terms for doctrine (though the doctrines are completely different).

Basically, though similar in some ways, the heart of the two religions are completely different, and as such are really mutually exclusive. One can not be right and the other be so as well....

Apex · Sep 14, 2004

Do you consider non-denominational as one of the united denominations? When I go to non-denominational web-sites I rarely can even find what their beliefs are. I will click on the "beliefs" tab and all I get is (and this is a generalization but it gets the point across) "To unite all peoples under Christ", now this is a good goal but it isn't a belief.

Zeddicus · Sep 14, 2004

Apex said:
Do you consider non-denominational as one of the united denominations? When I go to non-denominational web-sites I rarely can even find what their beliefs are. I will click on the "beliefs" tab and all I get is (and this is a generalization but it gets the point across) "To unite all peoples under Christ", now this is a good goal but it isn't a belief.

I am not sure..I would have to decide whether each and every Non-Denom church lines up on a church by church basis...

Jason of Wyoming · Sep 14, 2004

deleted.

RufustheRed · Sep 14, 2004

MormonFriend said:
Actually, it is in the context of the "whole Bible" (and the Book of Mormon) that I derive my reasoning. And most important, which you missed in your line up of things to search, is to search my heart and listen to what the Spirit teaches me. We are told:
So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; (Proverbs 2:2)

Pardon me for not being totally inclusive. I know better than to assume that one should seek God without being told. One of my favorite verses is Proverbs 3:6 (KJV), (OLD TESTAMENT) "In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

MF said:

I believe that too many people get hung up on interpeting every word and punctuation mark, assuming that every writer was a language major and had a "degree". So then we have double jeopardy in trusting the literacy of the writer, and the scholarship of the interpreter. Is it any wonder that the Lord told us the real way to understand is by the Holy Ghost? With this plan there is double safety. We not only get the truth, but we become united in our understanding and become one people, one heart, and like minded, .... as was the original purpose in the early Church.

Click to expand...

Great! Then I did exactly the right thing when I left the LDS belief system behind and became a former day Saint. Truthfully, I never doubted it. My studies (I'm sorry you don't appreciate my educational degrees) have only validated and confirmed that choice. Just for the record, I don't get "hung up" on punctuation, etc. I DO have a problem went people attempt to read something into a passage that just isn't there.

And I don't enjoy cabbage the first time. (except when cooked with corn beef)

Click to expand...

I'm sorry. I LOVE bratwurst and kraut, but my cardiologist has put it on one of those "If it tastes good, spit it out" lists.

MormonFriend · Sep 14, 2004

Zeddicus said:
..... I agree, though with the proviso that one only need to be correct on issues essential to salvation to have the Spirit.
........

Are you saying we first must have a correct understanding on essential issues before we can have the Spirit?

RufustheRed · Sep 14, 2004

Apex said:
Do you mean different religions? If so could you please state which ones you belive agree on the doctrines about salvation.

The Christian religion. Which religion do you believe "agree on the doctrines about salvation?" RLDS? Strangites? FLDS, Temple Lot? Why or why not?

MormonFriend · Sep 15, 2004

Sven1967 said:
Great! Then I did exactly the right thing when I left the LDS belief system behind and became a former day Saint. Truthfully, I never doubted it. My studies (I'm sorry you don't appreciate my educational degrees) have only validated and confirmed that choice. Just for the record, I don't get "hung up" on punctuation, etc. I DO have a problem went people attempt to read something into a passage that just isn't there.

Don't get me wrong on scholarship and studies. I am the greatful recipient of much knowledge as a result of those whose studies brought it close to me. I could never focus and accomplish the great things that they have. But scholarship and degrees mean very little when comprehending the purposes and doctrines of God.

There is a great difference between having knowledge of something, and understanding it. There is a key ingredient to obtaining true understanding. The best thing Satan could do to blind us from understanding is to make this ingredient look like a non-essential, so people don't take it seriously, as if their eternal salvation doesn't depend on it. Before we can find understanding, we must first turn from our iniquities, as it illustrated in Daniel.
As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. (Daniel 9:13)

This is one of the most critical issues I see, in a doctrine that has been misrepresented in the church due to the apostasy. What did the Catholics call it? .... Indulgences? What do Protestants say about repentance? "Not necessary once we are born again, or we can go on sinning any time we have a slack period. .... We should repent, but it is not essential to salvation."

What a perfect lie to keep the masses blinded.

As far as your observation of "reading something into a passage that just isn't there," I find it appropriate to apply a precept or truth that has been taught by the same writer, or his close associates in the Lord, to what a passage might say. I believe the Spirit brings such truths, external to that passage, to mind so as to better comprehend the passage. It is called "reasoning," and Jesus encouraged and used "reasoning" in many situations.

Rescued One · Sep 15, 2004

MormonFriend said:
What do Protestants say about repentance? "Not necessary once we are born again, or we can go on sinning any time we have a slack period. ....

THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE LIE!

Ye must be born again. A new birth results in a new creature. I've told you this over and over and over again. Keep ignoring me. I'll keep repeating the truth.

2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Revelation 21
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Romans 2
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

happyinhisgrace · Sep 15, 2004

MormonFriend said:
Don't get me wrong on scholarship and studies. I am the greatful recipient of much knowledge as a result of those whose studies brought it close to me. I could never focus and accomplish the great things that they have. But scholarship and degrees mean very little when comprehending the purposes and doctrines of God.

There is a great difference between having knowledge of something, and understanding it. There is a key ingredient to obtaining true understanding. The best thing Satan could do to blind us from understanding is to make this ingredient look like a non-essential, so people don't take it seriously, as if their eternal salvation doesn't depend on it. Before we can find understanding, we must first turn from our iniquities, as it illustrated in Daniel.
As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. (Daniel 9:13)

This is one of the most critical issues I see, in a doctrine that has been misrepresented in the church due to the apostasy. What did the Catholics call it? .... Indulgences? What do Protestants say about repentance? "Not necessary once we are born again, or we can go on sinning any time we have a slack period. .... We should repent, but it is not essential to salvation."

What a perfect lie to keep the masses blinded.

As far as your observation of "reading something into a passage that just isn't there," I find it appropriate to apply a precept or truth that has been taught by the same writer, or his close associates in the Lord, to what a passage might say. I believe the Spirit brings such truths, external to that passage, to mind so as to better comprehend the passage. It is called "reasoning," and Jesus encouraged and used "reasoning" in many situations.

What a bunch of hooey! Christians DO NOT believe it is ok to sin. We love Jesus, we don't love sin.

If anyone is blinded here, it is you with your inaccurate discourse of what Christians really believe.

A New Dawn · Sep 15, 2004

happyinhisgrace said:
What a bunch of hooey! Christians DO NOT believe it is ok to sin. We love Jesus, we don't love sin.

If anyone is blinded here, it is you with your inaccurate discourse of what Christians really believe.

So what do you believe about repentance? I, myself, have seen it poo-pooed on this forum.

skylark1 · Sep 15, 2004

Jenda said:
So what do you believe about repentance? I, myself, have seen it poo-pooed on this forum.

I have not seen repentance "poo-pooed" on this forum at all. It would be nice if you could reference where you believe that you have seen this, or summarize what you believe you have read.

A New Dawn · Sep 15, 2004

skylark1 said:
I have not seen repentance "poo-pooed" on this forum at all. It would be nice if you could reference where you believe that you have seen this, or summarize what you believe you have read.

It would also be nice if you answered the question instead of questioning my experience.

It was remarked in response to a post about repentance that one who is saved need not repent all the time because Christ has paid for all our sins already, so if we sin, He already has covered it. That asking for forgiveness is like asking for a gift after it has already been given.

Apostasy?

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