Apocryphal books

Susan · Nov 18, 2002

You can also find such codes in Shakespeare, in Melville, and in many authors' works. IOW, you can find "code" anywhere if you look hard enough for it.

The Bible code theory is discredited and not the way to defend Scripture. If God wants to give us a message, I have a hard time believing that He would heavily encode it so only a few could understand it.

Wolseley · Nov 18, 2002

If you don't believe they belong, why were they included in every council that debated the canon, and included until the reformationists kicked them out? does this mean the NT contents is open to discussion?

Luther thought so. He wanted to get rid of Hebrews, Jude, 2 Peter, Revelation, and especially James, since James 2:24-26 flew directly in the face of his "justification by faith alone" doctrine. However, his friend Philip Melanchthon talked him out of it, by pointing out that if he kept dealing with uncomfortable doctrines by simply throwing away that part of the Scriptures that contained them (such as he did with 2 Maccabees 12, which contains Purgatory, for example), he was going to have a pretty thin Bible before he got through. Luther reluctantly agreed, but did his best to quash any authority the books had by denegrating them; he declared that Jude was not the work of the Apostle, and dismissed James as an "epistle of straw". (O'Hare, Facts About Luther; Acinar, Luther's Own Statements; Ray, Crossing the Tiber; Stoddard, Rebuilding a Lost Faith; Sungenis, "From Controversy to Consolation".)

I can eat 50 eggs · Nov 18, 2002

exactly what I'm talking about Wols. Why should we trust the "new and improved" canon from a guy who wanted to ditch all those books?

I can eat 50 eggs · Nov 18, 2002

Originally posted by arab4christ
Just a quick note.....These apocryphal books were tried by many scholars and rabbis under the Bible Code experiment and failed. Not one code was found in them, while the OT has millions....I think this is just a small reasonal proof.

God bless

a4c

 

Is this really what you are basing your decision on?

 

scary.

FOMWatts<>< · Nov 18, 2002

LOL <>< I love you guys!

FOMWatts<><

arab4christ · Nov 18, 2002

Originally posted by I can eat 50 eggs
 

Is this really what you are basing your decision on?

 

scary.

Apart from the hundreds of evidence against these books? Yes

a4c

fragmentsofdreams · Nov 18, 2002

Originally posted by arab4christ
Just a quick note.....These apocryphal books were tried by many scholars and rabbis under the Bible Code experiment and failed. Not one code was found in them, while the OT has millions....I think this is just a small reasonal proof.

God bless

a4c

So U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea and War and Peace are also cannon because they have supposed predictions?

arab4christ · Nov 18, 2002

English please.

Thank you

a4c

fragmentsofdreams · Nov 19, 2002

People have also discovered prophesies in these secular works using the same techniques used by Bible Code proponents. Any work of sufficient length will have several hidden references to events just by pure coincidence.

arab4christ · Nov 19, 2002

Thanx for responding....
First of all, have any of these prophesies become true? Are they the same as the ones in the Bible already?

The major cases against these books is this: Each of the books in the Bible relate and hint to each other. Referring back and forth helps us a lot with the different books. These apocryphal books fail this, because the books in the Bible dont relate to them and the stories are so off. Ive read many of those apocryphal books. God has girls ?? Gods children are stars?? Jesus was telling secrets to each prophet and said that if they talk rocks would hit them or something like that? For Gods sake, what is this!

God did not allow our Bible to be perverted with these fake books, which our Christian historians even labeled false. Praise God.

God bless

a4c

I can eat 50 eggs · Nov 19, 2002

Originally posted by arab4christ

The major cases against these books is this: Each of the books in the Bible relate and hint to each other. Referring back and forth helps us a lot with the different books.

what "references" are you referring to?  examples?  what about the ones without references?  can I toss SOS?

 

Originally posted by arab4christ

Ive read many of those apocryphal books. God has girls ?? Gods children are stars?? Jesus was telling secrets to each prophet and said that if they talk rocks would hit them or something like that? For Gods sake, what is this! 

which books did you read?  the list of what can be called "apocryphal" contains many things NO ONE considers Biblical.  It's been a while since I read through them, but I don't recall much of what your talking about.

Wolseley · Nov 19, 2002

arab4christ, please provide us with specific references for your allusions above----books, chapters, and verses.

Specifically, I want to know whether you're quoting from the Deuterocanonicals (which Protestants call the Apocrypha), or from other pseudepigrapha.

Also, can you clarify for me how the accepted Masoretic texts are referred to in the New Testament in a manner different from the Septuagint texts, and especially the Deuterocanon/Apocrypha? Is there a standard vehicle for determining this?

Christopher Paul · Nov 20, 2002

An interesting note is that if you compare the quotations that the NT authors used, when citing the OT, it is an exact match with the Greek OT, the Septuagint, which included the Apocrypha. So obviously, the NT writers believed that the Septuagint was valid as the Word of God.

By association, the Apocrypha must be valid as well, else why would the NT writers use a "correupted" OT version?

Wolseley · Nov 20, 2002

EXACTLY.

Give the man a dollar cee-gar and a gift certificate to the store of his choice.

Christopher Paul · Nov 20, 2002

Originally posted by Wolseley
EXACTLY.

Give the man a dollar cee-gar and a gift certificate to the store of his choice.

Blessings for the poor?

Rick Otto · Nov 21, 2002

Interesting thread, friends.
Anyone ever hear of the Book of Jasher?
I believe it was referred to in the KJV.
"Is not this written in the Book of Jasher?"--Joshua, x. 13.
"Behold it is written in the Book of Jasher."--II Samuel, i. 18
It's an excellent read. It really amplifies on some of the information we get in the KJV.

isshinwhat · Nov 21, 2002

Just to make sure we are on the same page, these books are not termed "apochryphal" by the Catholic or Orthodox Churches, but are seen as Canonical Scripture.

Tobias (Tobit), Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, I and II Machabees, and three documents added to protocanonical books, viz., the supplement to Esther, from x, 4, to the end, the Canticle of the Three Youths (Song of the Three Children) in Daniel, iii, and the stories of Susanna and the Elders and Bel and the Dragon...

The others like the Acts of Andrew, the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, the Apocolypse of Peter, etc., are considered 'apochryphal" works. So we've got to be sure what we are talking about when we discuss The Apochrypha. Both Protestants and Catholics have the exact same 27 New Testament books, the only difference comes in the Old Testament Canon.

Wolseley · Nov 21, 2002

What Protestants call "the Apocrypha" is what Catholics call "the Deuterocanon".

What Catholics call "apocrypha" is what Protestants call "pseudepigrapha".

Anyone ever hear of the Book of Jasher?
I believe it was referred to in the KJV.
"Is not this written in the Book of Jasher?"--Joshua, x. 13.
"Behold it is written in the Book of Jasher."--II Samuel, i. 18

And not only the Book of Jasher, but a whole boatload of Scriptural books are mentioned in Scripture that we just plain don't have any more. What we know as the Old Testament is only a part of the writings produced by the ancient Jewish people. For example:

The Acts of Solomon (see 1 Kings 11:41)

The Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14)

The Book of Nathan the Prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29)

The Book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29)

The Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite (2 Chronicles 9:29)

The Visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chronicles 9:29)

The Book of Shemaiah the Prophet (2 Chronocles 12:15)

The Story of the Prophet Iddo (2 Chronicles 13:22)

The Chronicle of Jehu, Son of Hanani (2 Chronicles 20:34).

Who knows what these books might have contained??? We'll never find out, since all of them were destroyed or lost over the long course of Israelite history.

Is the Bible incomplete without them? Maybe. But then, the Jewish folks have their rabbinic schools and the Talmud to "fill in the gaps" left in the Bible, and the Catholics have Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium of the Church to do the same. The Protestants believe the Bible to be sufficient unto itself, so if there are troublesome passages or apparent gaps, then they live with them.

thetruthseeker · Nov 29, 2002

Originally posted by Wolseley
What Protestants call "the Apocrypha" is what Catholics call "the Deuterocanon".

What Catholics call "apocrypha" is what Protestants call "pseudepigrapha".

And not only the Book of Jasher, but a whole boatload of Scriptural books are mentioned in Scripture that we just plain don't have any more. What we know as the Old Testament is only a part of the writings produced by the ancient Jewish people. For example:

The Acts of Solomon (see 1 Kings 11:41)

The Book of the Wars of the Lord (Numbers 21:14)

The Book of Nathan the Prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29)

The Book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29)

The Prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite (2 Chronicles 9:29)

The Visions of Iddo the Seer (2 Chronicles 9:29)

The Book of Shemaiah the Prophet (2 Chronocles 12:15)

The Story of the Prophet Iddo (2 Chronicles 13:22)

The Chronicle of Jehu, Son of Hanani (2 Chronicles 20:34).

Who knows what these books might have contained??? We'll never find out, since all of them were destroyed or lost over the long course of Israelite history.

Is the Bible incomplete without them? Maybe. But then, the Jewish folks have their rabbinic schools and the Talmud to "fill in the gaps" left in the Bible, and the Catholics have Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium of the Church to do the same. The Protestants believe the Bible to be sufficient unto itself, so if there are troublesome passages or apparent gaps, then they live with them.

Hi Wolseley,

The Bible is complete in its own. It needs nothing else.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Please click on the link below for a good resource on this topic.

How Many Books in the Bible?

Your brother in Christ,
TheTruthSeeker

arab4christ · Nov 29, 2002

Sorry friends, But Im finished with this post. My English in terms of providing hardcore evidence and recollecting all that I know, as you guys want, is not that great. I wont bother. Im retired

God bless

a4c

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