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Apocrypha

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ICaine

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What made one group decide to keep certain books and another group to disregard them? Catholic vs Orthodox vs Protestant vs total disregard? Should a Christian stick with only the books that his/her church says are the right ones or should a Christian open his/her mind to all the available books? It seems to me a Christian should read all the books available as this would be in line with seeking God. However, I can also see how one wouldn't want to read those others books because it may lead one astray.
 

BeforeTheFoundation

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To answer the initial question, the main reason that some Churches disregard the Deuterocanon (apochrypha) is because these books were originally written in Greek (not Hebrew or Aramaic like the rest of the Old Testament). Therefore they are clearly of a later addition. Take Bel and the Dragon for instance. This book is an addition to the book of Daniel and yet is clearly not original to the text.

I do not say these things to insult people that use the Deuterocanon. Quite the opposite actually, the Bible that I read contains these books and I quite like a lot of them.

As to whether Christians should read them, I think that at the very least they should be considered. At the very least they would give historical context to the New Testament (the Deuterocanon was written slightly before the NT). Furthermore, contrary to popular belief Jesus quotes the Deuterocanon extensively (especially the book of Ben Sira/Sirach). Does this necessarily make these books Scripture? No, not necessarily, but if our Lord and Savior thought they were worthy of referencing then perhaps we should reference them occasionally as well.
 
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HypnoToad

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Some also see doctrinal and historical discrepancies in the Apocryphal books as indication that, while having a historical value, they can not be actual Scripture.

For example, Tobit contains an account where an angel of God tells a lie to conceal the fact he's an angel. Many regard that lie as a sin that no angel of God would/could ever commit. Tobit also claims to be alive during two events - 1) Jeroboam's revolt and 2) Assyria's conquest of Israel - events that took place over 200 years apart, while Tobit's lifespan is only given as 158 years. The book of Judith identifies Nebuchadnezzar as the king of Assyria, when he was actually the king of Babylon.

You can read some more here or here.
 
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BeforeTheFoundation

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Some also see doctrinal and historical discrepancies in the Apocryphal books as indication that, while having a historical value, they can not be actual Scripture.

For example, Tobit contains an account where an angel of God tells a lie to conceal the fact he's an angel. Many regard that lie as a sin that no angel of God would/could ever commit. Tobit also claims to be alive during two events - 1) Jeroboam's revolt and 2) Assyria's conquest of Israel - events that took place over 200 years apart, while Tobit's lifespan is only given as 158 years. The book of Judith identifies Nebuchadnezzar as the king of Assyria, when he was actually the king of Babylon.

You can read some more here or here.
Precisely why I left the question of authority open to personal opinion. Personally, I bet that I agree with HypnoToad, the Deuterocanon, in my opinion, is not on the same level as the rest of the Bible, but I do think that it is worthy to reference.
 
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rshanen

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In my mind, prayer is great for these type of issues. The Holy Spirit is sent from God to teach us all things(Jn 14:26). The discerning of spirits(1 Cor 12:10)is a helpful gift in knowing how to separate the wheat from the chaff. However, the Bible also tells us that greivous wolves have crept in to do harm to Gods chosen(Acts 20:29). Stay close to God and lean not on your own understanding(Prov 3:5) These are very complicated and important issues worthy of deep discussion. Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
 
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BigNorsk

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Well, it's really a story of Bibles. You have strong support in the early church for the 22 book Old Testament Canon. There were other books that were read, but were not considered authoritative on matters of doctrine.

Some of those books ended up eventually in the Septuagint, the Greek Bible and eventually the Vulgate, the Latin.

We can see even though they were in the Bible though that the learned did not consider them of the same authority. So we see Athanasius, the Bishop of Constantinople, clearly lay out that there was a 22 book canon of the Old Testament that was scripture (he made one mistake in his list, having one Apocryphal book instead of Esther). We also see Jerome, who translated the Vulgate, in the prefaces of the Vulgate lay out again that there were the books of fully authoritative scripture and the apocryphal books. Apocrypha was even a word he used for them.

Well over time, people look to their bible and they just accept it. Not everyone is a scholar. So we see the Orthodox church and people think the Septuagint was always the way they have it now and they think in that exact form Jesus and the Apostles quoted from it and so they accept it in it's entirety. They don't really make the distinction between the books of scripture and those that are useful but not scripture.

And we see the same thing in the Roman church. In addition to the prefaces of the Vulgate, we see people through the ages who understand that the extra books are useful for reading and study but not to be a source of doctrinal authority, people like Pope Gregory the Great, is just one. And we see the very books the Roman Catholic Church used make the same distinction.

For instance the Glossa ordianaria, the ordinary or common gloss which was the standard commentary used by the Roman Catholic Church. It both laid out in the prefaces that the Apocryphal books were not scripture but in order to make sure one did not miss that, each Apocryphal book or portion of a book was started with a note saying they were not a part of the canon.

In any case we don't see a lot. Because a lot was lost, there weren't that many that wrote and it's a little like those other things that people just know, they write about areas of dispute, not areas of agreement.

Anyway we see some individuals who wrote but we don't see a lot not in what you could necessarily call officially approved publications but then comes the printing press and things change.

The Biblia Complutensia, produced by Cardinal Ximenes, the Archbishop of Toledo, dedicated to Pope Leo X, and published with his full authority and consent in 1517, spells out that the Apocryphal books are not canonical scripture and so not to be used for confirmation of doctrine.

A couple Latin Bibles were also in agreement.
The earliest Latin version of the Bible in modern times, made from the original languages by the scholarly Dominican, Sanctes Pagnini, and published at Lyons in 1528, with commendatory letters from Pope Adrian VI and Pope Clement VII, sharply separates the text of the canonical books from the text of the Apocryphal books. Still another Latin Bible, this one an addition of Jerome’s Vulgate published at Nuermberg by Johannes Petreius in 1527, presents the order of the books as in the Vulgate but specifies at the beginning of each Apocryphal book that it is not canonical. Furthermore, in his address to the Christian reader the editor lists the disputed books as ‘Libri Apocryphi, sive non Canonici, qui nusquam apud Hebraeos extant’ (Bruce Metzger, An Introduction to the Apocrypha (New York: Oxford, 1957), p. 180).

Even Cardinal Cajetan, who was a great opponent of Luther published his commentary on the Old Testament in 1532 and voiced complete agreement with Luther on the canon. Luther's full translation was published in 1534.

So the position of the Western church was really quite clear, but really only known by scholars, it probably wasnt' a topic of many sermons because there was no fight over it.

So you have the Old Testament canon, the New Testament canon and the Apocryphal book deemed useful for study but not authoritative in doctrine.

You often hear it stated that Luther somehow was the first to make the distinction but he's really in complete agreement with his contemporaries. As shown by those references I mentioned. And it should be noted that at least two of the works he used in making his translation, the Vulgate and the Glossa ordianria make the clear distinction. Luther probably would have liked to actually remove some books, he complained about them, but in the end, every book is right there in his translations. (the only exception was 3 and 4 Esdras which were in an appendix in the Vulgate, and ignored by Trent, later they returned to the Protestant Apocrypha as 1 and 2 Esdras)

Then came the Reformation and Trent. Trent is called an eucumenical council by the Roman Catholic church but it's really more a regional council. Just ask the Orthodox. In any case it is there that they declared the Catholic canon. And what they did was declare every book in the Vulgate (except the three in an appendix which they didn't mention) as fully authoritative scripture. Now even the vote gives insight 24 aye, 15 nay, 16 abstaining. You often hear that they were just affirming the long standing canon accepted universally by the church, but the vote certainly doesn't support that theory. And the politics of the day need to be understood. Trent was not the learned of the church. It was more a gathering of the political opponents of the Reformation. And it should be noted that the way you got appointments to land and such was to please the Pope. So I can but see the vote as little more than some political hacks who wanted to say what they thought the Pope wanted them to say. Or possibly people who without understanding simply took the Vulgate, the only authority they appealed to as scripture.

It's really much like a child growing up and seeing the pastor wave a KJV repeatedly saying behold the Word of God and the child grows up to become a KJO proponent. He literally take the KJV as perfect because that's how he understood it as a child. He simply took a statement he heard on faith and didn't necessarily understand everything behind the statement.

There are of course through the years people and such that can be used to support Trent, but the most learned and even indeed the publications used by the church show that there was that distinction between scripture and apocrypha, the difference between being written by a prophet and a historian.

There really isn't as much difference as it seems sometimes. Catholics still often make a distinction between the protocanoncial (Jewish canon) and the deuterocanonical (Apocryphal) books. And they really don't use them for doctrine. Oh you hear people use them to try and support purgatory, but the story doesn't support purgatory unless idolatry is a venial sin and the Catholics sure don't teach that. And I would criticize many Protestants today for being so negative on the Apocrypha, it seems to me to be an overeaction to Rome. There are things to be learned there and the Apocryphal books do give insight into the New Testament.

Hope that's helpful. Many of course would not agree with my rendition of history. But I believe it's basically accurate.

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ICaine

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Yes, thank you very much; all of you. That does help me out. But now I am concerned with a new question stemming partly from the second question I asked which dealt with how much weight a Christian should give to outside literature.

Many individuals I know claim that the Bible is the way it is because it was edited by God. These people I know argue, if God wanted those other books to be there then they would be. When it comes to Bible discussion these people say they take thier view 'directly from scripture' and disregard all that could be included as scripture. As I make of it, if Jesus does quote outside literature then even He doesn't take 'directly from scripture' and those books left out should be dealt with respectfully. Ok, so I guess there's no question there. I'm just thinking about it.

Below are the quotes from this thread that I used in thinking about this.

It's really much like a child growing up and seeing the pastor wave a KJV repeatedly saying behold the Word of God and the child grows up to become a KJO proponent. He literally take the KJV as perfect because that's how he understood it as a child. He simply took a statement he heard on faith and didn't necessarily understand everything behind the statement.
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In my mind, prayer is great for these type of issues. The Holy Spirit is sent from God to teach us all things(Jn 14:26)...These are very complicated and important issues worthy of deep discussion.

...contrary to popular belief Jesus quotes the Deuterocanon extensively (especially the book of Ben Sira/Sirach).
 
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CShephard53

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What made one group decide to keep certain books and another group to disregard them? Catholic vs Orthodox vs Protestant vs total disregard? Should a Christian stick with only the books that his/her church says are the right ones or should a Christian open his/her mind to all the available books? It seems to me a Christian should read all the books available as this would be in line with seeking God. However, I can also see how one wouldn't want to read those others books because it may lead one astray.
Specifically, the Apocrypha is know for its historical consistency but doctrinal inconsistency. How do we choose what to read? We try to line it up with the core of the Bible and see how well it does so, and if it does not it gets either tossed or put off to the side for others to examine.
 
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BeforeTheFoundation

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[SIZE=3 said:
jawsmetroid[/SIZE]]Specifically, the Apocrypha is know for its historical consistency

I would have to disagree with this in part. I think that a mistake that we may be making is to talk about the Apocrypha as if it is all alike. While I agree that the Maccabees, for instance, are fairly historical, I think that it would be a mistake to assume that books like Tobit and Bel and the Dragon are.

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ICaine said:
Many individuals I know claim that the Bible is the way it is because it was edited by God. These people I know argue, if God wanted those other books to be there then they would be. When it comes to Bible discussion these people say they take thier view 'directly from scripture' and disregard all that could be included as scripture.

While I personally disagree with the notion that God wrote or edited the Bible, I can respect this belief. However, I think that to dismiss the Apocrypha whole-sale is still a mistake. Let us assume for a moment that God edited or wrote the Bible and did not do this for the Apocrypha. We can still use the Apocrypha as a tool for our understanding of the Bible. I mean, let's face it, if the Bible were as easy to understand as people like to make it out to be then we would have no need for a forum like this because there wouldn't be these discrepancies in major beliefs. But it is difficult, and I would argue that we need all the help that we can get in understanding it. Fortunately, God has provided us with a lot of resources, one of those is the Apocrypha.
 
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BigNorsk

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Yes, thank you very much; all of you. That does help me out. But now I am concerned with a new question stemming partly from the second question I asked which dealt with how much weight a Christian should give to outside literature.

Many individuals I know claim that the Bible is the way it is because it was edited by God. These people I know argue, if God wanted those other books to be there then they would be. When it comes to Bible discussion these people say they take thier view 'directly from scripture' and disregard all that could be included as scripture. As I make of it, if Jesus does quote outside literature then even He doesn't take 'directly from scripture' and those books left out should be dealt with respectfully. Ok, so I guess there's no question there. I'm just thinking about it.

Below are the quotes from this thread that I used in thinking about this.


Well, it gets back to the authority of what is being quoted, and often that's not really stated. Ever hear a pastor quote a book or author from the pulpit? I think most of us have, but do you thereby think that the pastor puts that author or book on a level with the Bible? I would hope not.

And that difference in authority is really what happens relative to the Apocryphal books in the Bible. Generally they were used to read in the churches and for personal edification but they were not deemed of authority to establish doctrine.

We do the same sort of thing all the time but some people go too far.

For instance you might not think of it that way but when you walk into a Christian bookstore, the books are not authoritative. What they teach in accord with scripture can really still be understood as God's Word, just as a preacher doesn't have to quote the Bible to be preaching God's Word. But if either go away from or add to or contradict God's Word, then it is not God's Word but simply a teaching of man.

We might find some teacher who's quite trustworthy and we might hold him in high esteem but we don't consider his writings to be scripture.

And so we can see the Apocryphal books in the Bible. Generally trustworthy, held in high esteem, but not scripture in the strictest sense of the word. Not recognized at that level of authority.

Quoting in and of itself doesn't prove something to be scripture. Though some of the quotes in the Bible specifically mention that what is quoted is scripture, or, especially when a book is quoted repeatedly, we can see the authority which is given the book. It's not a quote equals it's scripture. It wouldn't even necessarily be a quote means it's true.

Back to that pastor, he might have quoted from the DaVinci Code, but that doesn't mean he thinks it's scripture. Context usually tells us. He might quote it and then teach how wrong it is. Or it might be quoted to reflect the culture. But if he hold's up a Davinci Code and says behold the Word of God. Then you've got troubles.

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CShephard53

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I would have to disagree with this in part. I think that a mistake that we may be making is to talk about the Apocrypha as if it is all alike. While I agree that the Maccabees, for instance, are fairly historical, I think that it would be a mistake to assume that books like Tobit and Bel and the Dragon are.

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While I personally disagree with the notion that God wrote or edited the Bible, I can respect this belief. However, I think that to dismiss the Apocrypha whole-sale is still a mistake. Let us assume for a moment that God edited or wrote the Bible and did not do this for the Apocrypha. We can still use the Apocrypha as a tool for our understanding of the Bible. I mean, let's face it, if the Bible were as easy to understand as people like to make it out to be then we would have no need for a forum like this because there wouldn't be these discrepancies in major beliefs. But it is difficult, and I would argue that we need all the help that we can get in understanding it. Fortunately, God has provided us with a lot of resources, one of those is the Apocrypha.
Historical consistency and historical reliability are two different things.
 
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CShephard53

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Ahh, I think we are talking past each other. Care to explain what you mean?
Historical consistency is when something is consistent- at least to some extent- with other historical documents. Reliability is just something that plays into.
 
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BeforeTheFoundation

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Historical consistency is when something is consistent- at least to some extent- with other historical documents. Reliability is just something that plays into.

Ahh, That is what I thought you meant and I still have to say that I disagree in part. I might be just be acting ornery but I have to make an appeal to Tobit, Judith, Additions to Esther, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon as books that are not consistent with other historical documents, not even the Bible. But it is a fairly minor point.
 
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CShephard53

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Ahh, That is what I thought you meant and I still have to say that I disagree in part. I might be just be acting ornery but I have to make an appeal to Tobit, Judith, Additions to Esther, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon as books that are not consistent with other historical documents, not even the Bible. But it is a fairly minor point.
It can be historically consistent without being doctrinally consistent or unmentioned. Anyhow, I was speaking about the Apocrypha generally.
 
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BeforeTheFoundation

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jawsmetroid said:
It can be historically consistent without being doctrinally consistent or unmentioned. Anyhow, I was speaking about the Apocrypha generally.

Well, this argument is rapidly degenerating into pointlessness. Just suffice it to say that I was not talking about doctrinal consistency but historical consistency and I was talking about the Apocrypha generally. Obviously we have different views on this and apart from moving to the inevitable and pointless proof texting we shall probably not resolve this. Agree to disagree?
 
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CShephard53

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Well, this argument is rapidly degenerating into pointlessness. Just suffice it to say that I was not talking about doctrinal consistency but historical consistency and I was talking about the Apocrypha generally. Obviously we have different views on this and apart from moving to the inevitable and pointless proof texting we shall probably not resolve this. Agree to disagree?
Agree, so long as you don't do what another user did and say that I can't even disagree... meh, whatever.
 
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ebia

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To answer the initial question, the main reason that some Churches disregard the Deuterocanon (apochrypha) is because these books were originally written in Greek (not Hebrew or Aramaic like the rest of the Old Testament).
That was the original reason for raising question-marks about them, but more recently it has turned out that some of them were originally written in aramaic.

Therefore they are clearly of a later addition. Take Bel and the Dragon for instance. This book is an addition to the book of Daniel and yet is clearly not original to the text.

I do not say these things to insult people that use the Deuterocanon. Quite the opposite actually, the Bible that I read contains these books and I quite like a lot of them.

As to whether Christians should read them, I think that at the very least they should be considered. At the very least they would give historical context to the New Testament (the Deuterocanon was written slightly before the NT). Furthermore, contrary to popular belief Jesus quotes the Deuterocanon extensively (especially the book of Ben Sira/Sirach). Does this necessarily make these books Scripture? No, not necessarily, but if our Lord and Savior thought they were worthy of referencing then perhaps we should reference them occasionally as well.
Historically a lot of churches (including the Church of England in its 39 articles) at the reformation said that these books should be read for personal learning, but not used for forming doctrine. That seems an entirely reasonable basis on which to take them. Some of them offer little beyond insights into the culture that wrote them - but even that is worth having as it is only sightly earlier than the culture that Jesus worked in.

Some, like Wisdom of Solomon, are well worth a read. If one recognises "Wisdom" in that book as John's "Word" or Paul's "Lord" it makes a lot of sense.
 
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