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May 11, 2004
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Which book, if any, of the Apocrypha, could be considered as scripture? Not to be confused with the Apocrypha, are there any of the psuedo-Apocrypha which may also be given a value? (see the sacred-texts site) After a rough study, most of the Apocrypha seem Biblically based, but most of the psuedo-Apocrypha seem obviously fake. Please assist!

(Also, is it permissible to speak in Latin here, or must I translate to English?)
 

Oblio

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If you are speaking of what Protestants call the OT Apocrypha, or what is properly termed as the Deuterocanon (Wisdom, Sirrach, Maccabees et. al.), then your answer is that ALL of them are considered Scripture. They were edited out of the Bible in recent history by some Christians, but have always been part of the Bible from its beginning in the late 4th century AD. You will not find Bibles that pre-date the reformation without those books included.
 
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I know they were part of older Bibles, but I think I should rephrase it a little. Was the Apocrypha considered scripture in Jesus' day by the Jews? Was it in their "Bible"? Was it ever read from in that time (Early 1st Century)?
 
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http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-04/Npnf2-04-93.htm Athanasius refers to what we now call Apocrypha as books not included in the Canon but merely read, and to what we call pseudo-apocrypha as apochryphal. Below is the last four paragraphs from the link:

Athanasius said:
There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges, then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book. And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book. Again Ezra, the first and second [Nehemiah] are similarly one book. After these there is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book. Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and the epistle [Baruch, actually being part of what we now call the Apocrypha], one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far constitutes the Old Testament.

Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament. These are, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called universal), seven, viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude. In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews; and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And besides, the Revelation of John.

These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these. For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, `Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures.' And He reproved the Jews, saying, `Search the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of Me.'

But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics, who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may find occasion to lead astray the simple.
 
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Oblio

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Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
I know they were part of older Bibles, but I think I should rephrase it a little. Was the Apocrypha considered scripture in Jesus' day by the Jews? Was it in their "Bible"? Was it ever read from in that time (Early 1st Century)?

Christ and The Apostles considered the Deuterocanon Scripture and quoted most often from the Septuagint (LXX) which included it. There was a heretical sect of Jews, who sought to discredit Christianity, that exluded the Deuterocanon in AD 70, but the Christians did not follow their canon, but rather the LXX.
 
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Oblio

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Athanasius refers to what we now call Apocrypha as books not included in the Canon but merely read, and to what we call pseudo-apocrypha as apochryphal. Below is the last four paragraphs from the link:

It is important to remember that St. Athanasius, as important as he was, is fallible and does not, nor does any other man determine the canon of Holy Scripture. The canon was determined by Holy Council, led by the Holy Spirit, and included the Deuterocanon in this canon. It is folly to put trust in a man, whether he be Athanasius or Luther, in the determination of what books make up tha canon of Holy Scripture.
 
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christian-only

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Well, by Deuterocanon they meant "a canon of books that are read but not actually in the real canon" which agrees exactly with what Athanasius said. And even if that wasn't the case, which I'm quite sure it is, I think I'd rather stick with what Athanasius said than with whatever council you refer to, since it is obvious that Tobit is just a Jewish commedy act. An angel lying to a man and extorting camels from him - I mean, come on. IF this is a book "merely read" and "not in the Canon" then OK, but if it's in the Canon then there's a big problem here!
 
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Bizzlebin Imperatoris said:
Where is the camel thing from?

In the book of Tobit an angel takes a trip with Tobit and makes up a name for himself, claiming to be Tobit's kinsman. At one point in the story, Tobit or one of his family members offers the angel some camels thinking that he is a relative and he accepts them, under false pretenses obviously since he isn't Tobit's relative and isn't even a man. There's no indication that he ever gave them back. This is what I remember anyway.
 
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Hey all and God bless!

I thought it might help if I were to add that - although the Early Church Fathers and Popes throughout the ages before the final canonical decision at the Council of Trent have disagreed, which must be conceded at the outset - the main reason the deuterocanon was thrown out of Bibles was because Martin Luther found that they disagreed with his theological views. At least, 2 Maccabees 12:45ff, prayer for the dead is advocated, which was something Luther didn't like, and so he decided to remove it from his own (subjectively-determined) canon of Scriptures. He did the same with not only the other 6 deuterocanonicals, but also the Epistle of James, saying "Therefore St. James' epistle is really an epistle of straw...for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it." Also, Revelation and I'm not sure how many other NT books were thrown out by Luther.

I suggest, too, that some of the patristic quotes in regard to the so-called Apocrypha be investigated, which can be found here: http://www.catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp.

I hope this helps some,
In Christ,
Sheridan
 
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Oblio

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Again, the problem is that the Deutercanon was accepted by all Christians for 1500 years (and canonized for the latter 1000 years of that) before it was 'removed' by a man with no authority and an agenda for doing so. Why would anyone put their trust in a man to determine that which was inspired, infallible, and the very word of God ??
 
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Howdy, again!
I'm glad to see God uses our meager efforts and multiplies them as He did the loaves and fish (see Jn. 6:1-14)!

The Revised Standard Version - Catholic Edition has all three, Bizzlebin.

And you'd probably be surprised to find that most early Protestant versions - the earliest KJV, especially - had the deuterocanon. I apologize if I gave not a precise enough impression, but Luther actually put the deuterocanon in an unnumbered-paged appendix towards the back of his Bibles, and didn't actually get rid of them totally. That was done for good by the English Foreign Bible Society in about the mid-late 19th century or so.

Thanks be to Christ our God for all of His truth,
Sheridan
 
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Captain John Sheridan said:
the main reason the deuterocanon was thrown out of Bibles was because Martin Luther found that they disagreed with his theological views. At least, 2 Maccabees 12:45ff, prayer for the dead is advocated, which was something Luther didn't like

This is false, as far as the English Bible is concerned. After Luther, in 1611, the Apocrypha was still being printed in the King James version. It was the Puritan who eventually took it out. BTW, The Apocrypha is not rejected by all Protestants, but many believe that it is profitable to read for historical purposes, but that no doctrine is established nor should be established by it. This was the position of the Church of England which is why it was included in the KJV but separated from actual Scripture.

Now, concerning 2nd Maccabees 12:45, which says "And also in that he perceived that there was great favour layed up for those that died godly. (It was an holy, and good thought) wherupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin." Firstly, it is merely a narrative. Judas hung himself - does that make it right? Secondly, it directly contradicts 1 John 5:16 "There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." If a man commit a sin that results in his physical death, we are not to pray about it.
 
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