AP students question #one

[Chany]

Because without God, you're only saying "like" and "dislike", which are different from saying "right" and "wrong".

How does adding God change things?

 

[Chesterton]

How does adding God change things?

It makes right and wrong into real things.

 

[Chany]

It makes right and wrong into real things.

How? Also, why could right and wrong not be real things without God?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Because without God, you're only saying "like" and "dislike", which are different from saying "right" and "wrong".

I would argue that even "with god" you're talking about personal beliefs in regards to right and wrong. These are never things that you can prove as facts...no matter how many gods you appeal to.

 

[Chesterton]

How? Also, why could right and wrong not be real things without God?

It provides an external standard by which to measure kind of like the sun or moon does with a calendar.

I would argue that even "with god" you're talking about personal beliefs in regards to right and wrong. These are never things that you can prove as facts...no matter how many gods you appeal to.

If God's not real then you're right, but if He's real then you're not. But the important point is that even if you're right you're still not right because there is no "right". Capeesh?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It provides an external standard by which to measure kind of like the sun or moon does with a calendar.



If God's not real then you're right, but if He's real then you're not. But the important point is that even if you're right you're still not right because there is no "right". Capeesh?

Well, let's assume that god is real for a moment...

Go ahead and show me how "right" and "wrong" become factual things...

 

[Chesterton]

If He's the author of reality then God could have made it so that there actually are right things, right ways to be. I guess you could compare it to color ontology, how some people say color is a real thing, and others say it's not, it's just how brains came to interpret different light wavelengths.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If He's the author of reality then God could have made it so that there actually are right things, right ways to be. I guess you could compare it to color ontology, how some people say color is a real thing, and others say it's not, it's just how brains came to interpret different light wavelengths.

You're right...there could be right things...but if all you're doing is speculating on their existence, then it's just a matter of your opinion vs mine. Since you haven't offered any reason to believe god has created a moral right or wrong, would you like to retract your statement about "needing" a god to have a discussion about right and wrong?

 

[Chesterton]

You're right...there could be right things...but if all you're doing is speculating on their existence, then it's just a matter of your opinion vs mine. Since you haven't offered any reason to believe god has created a moral right or wrong, would you like to retract your statement about "needing" a god to have a discussion about right and wrong?

I don't think I ever offered to offer any reason to believe. We can try that in another thread if you want. But no I won't retract the statement because the OP was asking about IF there is a God, blah, blah, etc. If there isn't a God, you don't need to worry about right and wrong. Starving children will starve, and they will hate it, and there will be crime and war, and you and I will hate hearing about it, but there's nothing right or wrong won't about any of it, because it's all in our heads.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't think I ever offered to offer any reason to believe. We can try that in another thread if you want. But no I won't retract the statement because the OP was asking about IF there is a God, blah, blah, etc. If there isn't a God, you don't need to worry about right and wrong. Starving children will starve, and they will hate it, and there will be crime and war, and you and I will hate hearing about it, but there's nothing right or wrong won't about any of it, because it's all in our heads.

So we're back to flat out denial?

"Let's just not talk about it because...."

Just because I can't factually prove that I like cookies doesn't mean we couldn't have a completely valid discussion about which cookies taste good and which taste bad.

If you see a difference, please explain it.

 

[Chesterton]

So we're back to flat out denial?

"Let's just not talk about it because...."

Just because I can't factually prove that I like cookies doesn't mean we couldn't have a completely valid discussion about which cookies taste good and which taste bad.

If you see a difference, please explain it.

You really think that the statements "I like this kind of cookie" and "this cookie is the right kind" are saying the same thing?

 

[Ana the Ist]

You really think that the statements "I like this kind of cookie" and "this cookie is the right kind" are saying the same thing?

No...of course they aren't saying the same thing. You've left the analogy though... saying "this cookie" is the right kind is different from saying "this is the right thing to do". You can have an objectively correct kind of cookie... you can't have an objectively correct kind of action.

The similarities between "I like this cookie" and "I think this is right/wrong" is that they are statements of opinion... they may be correct to you and no one else.

 

[Chany]

If He's the author of reality then God could have made it so that there actually are right things, right ways to be. I guess you could compare it to color ontology, how some people say color is a real thing, and others say it's not, it's just how brains came to interpret different light wavelengths.

No, it's really not like that. How does God saying "this action is right" differ from me saying "this action is right"? I can think of possible way, but I don't know if it is internally logical and consistent and it definitely does not actually require a deity.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, it's really not like that. How does God saying "this action is right" differ from me saying "this action is right"? I can think of possible way, but I don't know if it is internally logical and consistent and it definitely does not actually require a deity.

I thought he was trying to say something else...like god could've made morals something like the laws of physics...a testable verifiable process of right and wrong.

 

[Chany]

I thought he was trying to say something else...like god could've made morals something like the laws of physics...a testable verifiable process of right and wrong.

Natural law theory? That's what I was thinking.

Something that determined all men to be, say, rational and aim at the good and that all evil actions eventually lead to a objective harm to the self.

You do not need a theistic deity to obtain natural law theory. Many of the ancient Greeks followed this model.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Natural law theory? That's what I was thinking.

Something that determined all men to be, say, rational and aim at the good and that all evil actions eventually lead to a objective harm to the self.

You do not need a theistic deity to obtain natural law theory. Many of the ancient Greeks followed this model.

I'm not entirely sure... the point was he could've made things this way. He didn't.

 

[Chany]

I'm not entirely sure... the point was he could've made things this way. He didn't.

Never said it was actual. I just said possible. It clearly isn't this way. I'm just saying that God has practically no connection to meta-ethical questions.

 

[Gene2memE]

.

 

[Cearbhall]

Because without God, you're only saying "like" and "dislike", which are different from saying "right" and "wrong".

I don't believe in objective morality, you're right, but that doesn't mean I think the words "right" and "wrong" are meaningless. They're simply subjective terms in my book. That's what they mean to me. I don't believe there's any stronger or higher form of morality than how we construct the concepts of "right" and "wrong."

 

[Chesterton]

No...of course they aren't saying the same thing. You've left the analogy though... saying "this cookie" is the right kind is different from saying "this is the right thing to do". You can have an objectively correct kind of cookie... you can't have an objectively correct kind of action.

The similarities between "I like this cookie" and "I think this is right/wrong" is that they are statements of opinion... they may be correct to you and no one else.

You're making my point here. "Right" being a matter of opinion is a contradiction in terms. You can tell if an inch is a "right" inch by measuring it against a ruler, an external standard. If an inch is just whatever my or your opinion is, then there's really no such thing as an inch.

No, it's really not like that. How does God saying "this action is right" differ from me saying "this action is right"? I can think of possible way, but I don't know if it is internally logical and consistent and it definitely does not actually require a deity.

The difference is that God would be the author of reality and you and I would be merely interpreters. As such, He's the prescriber of morality which is a very important part of our reality.

I thought he was trying to say something else...like god could've made morals something like the laws of physics...a testable verifiable process of right and wrong.

Natural law theory? That's what I was thinking.

Something that determined all men to be, say, rational and aim at the good and that all evil actions eventually lead to a objective harm to the self.

You do not need a theistic deity to obtain natural law theory. Many of the ancient Greeks followed this model.

Sorry if I'm not good at explaining my position. Maybe you can try and explain yours. Without appeal to any supernatural standard, can you tell me how a thing can be wrong? Often the problem of evil is broken down into natural and man-made, so for examples I'll ask about one of each, but you can discuss anything you want. 1) Why is it wrong for an earthquake to kill humans? and 2) Why is it wrong for one human to steal money from another?