Anyone up for a chat thread?

gordonhooker · Aug 16, 2018

Wandered into the forum and saw not a lot was happening, popped over to traditional theology (not much going on there either), dropped into Controversial theology (the patients are still running the asylum) thought about recommending Keith Giles new book 'Jesus Unbound' but decided that would only make the hornets angry. Came back in here for a mini-rant - O well over to facetube or twitbook what ever they call it...

Philip_B · Aug 16, 2018

I have just posted, on a thread about eating non-christian carrots!

Paidiske · Aug 16, 2018

I've been on retreat most of this week. Went up to Beechworth; far out it was cold! Lovely gold-rush-era Anglican church up there, though:

Paidiske · Aug 16, 2018

Philip_B said:
I have just posted, on a thread about eating non-christian carrots!

Quick, let's baptise them! Or do we need to exorcise them first?!

gordonhooker · Aug 17, 2018

Philip_B said:
I have just posted, on a thread about eating non-christian carrots!

Go for brother

gordonhooker · Aug 17, 2018

Paidiske said:
Quick, let's baptise them! Or do we need to exorcise them first?!

It most surely is a puzzlement...

gordonhooker · Aug 17, 2018

Paidiske said:
I've been on retreat most of this week. Went up to Beechworth; far out it was cold! Lovely gold-rush-era Anglican church up there, though:

View attachment 238186

beautiful church...

Paidiske · Aug 17, 2018

It was a very prayerful space.

So cold though. And the rectory is old and... quirky. I'd suffer through winter there!

Shane R · Aug 19, 2018

I once walked two miles in a temperature 37 degrees below zero Fahrenheit (-38 C).

I was down at the chancery for the last four days doing liturgical training. There were three of us in this class and we were informed on Saturday that the Bishop's intention is to make all of us priests at the fall clericus on the morning of 6 October: the commemoration of Blessed William Tyndale. We were instructed to acquire a red chasuble and priest's stole and a chalice and paten in the intermediate period.

Paidiske · Aug 19, 2018

It took me a moment, but I gather those two paragraphs are wholly unconnected, and the two mile walk in Antarctic conditions wasn't in search of chasuble, stole, etc.

Congratulations on the impending ordination, Shane. Do you have further formal interviews etc to go through, or are the formalities dealt with now?

Shane R · Aug 19, 2018

Yes, wholly unrelated. I was just chuckling to myself about what you folk endure for winter. More than half of Americans and all of the Canadians would consider your average winter temperatures normative for Autumn.

As for the church business: we will be given the canonical exam tomorrow. It was suggested that appropriate responses to whatever is contained therein -which is kept in great clandestine secrecy- would total perhaps a bit over 50 pages of writing. I was also passed a book from one of the men in our last crop of priests which I am to read, meditate on, and inwardly digest with the expectation that in good time I will pass it on to a deacon for the same purpose. The book is: With Jesus to the Priesthood by Jules Grimal (who was French) trans. by a fellow named Shaugnessy. It is long out of print and the edition that was passed to me dates to 1932. The poor book badly needs rebound at this late stage of its life.

Paidiske · Aug 19, 2018

Yes, I know. Our winter is mild compared to you guys. I still want to hibernate, though!

Canonical exam? Ouch. That makes our interview panel sound mild in comparison. (They weren't all that mild, but at least there wasn't a written component). Oh, no actually, I forgot; we had to write the archbishop an essay on why we were ready to be priested. Which I found difficult, because nobody could give me any definition of readiness - what they were looking for us to have developed since our deaconing - other than that we hadn't had some major stuff up during our diaconate, which seemed pretty weak to me.

The "go to" book here is Michael Ramsay's The Christian Priest Today, but I haven't read it. It's out of print and I haven't been able to lay hands on a copy. Will admit that I didn't try that hard...

gordonhooker · Aug 19, 2018

Shane R said:
Yes, wholly unrelated. I was just chuckling to myself about what you folk endure for winter. More than half of Americans and all of the Canadians would consider your average winter temperatures normative for Autumn.

As for the church business: we will be given the canonical exam tomorrow. It was suggested that appropriate responses to whatever is contained therein -which is kept in great clandestine secrecy- would total perhaps a bit over 50 pages of writing. I was also passed a book from one of the men in our last crop of priests which I am to read, meditate on, and inwardly digest with the expectation that in good time I will pass it on to a deacon for the same purpose. The book is: With Jesus to the Priesthood by Jules Grimal (who was French) trans. by a fellow named Shaugnessy. It is long out of print and the edition that was passed to me dates to 1932. The poor book badly needs rebound at this late stage of its life.

Scary stuff Shane.....

Shane R · Aug 20, 2018

Having received the file and looked over the contents, the canonical exam is 9 pages of questions: 64 in all. The subjects are: The Bible (18), Church History (14), Dogmatic Theology (17), The Sacraments (5), Canon Law (10). The expected answer ranges from a sentence to a paragraph or a fleshed out essay in some instances. We may use whatever resources we have at hand and deem helpful but are not to quote other authors directly, except for the formularies and the Bible. We have 40 days to complete it and submit to the bishop.

Philip_B · Aug 20, 2018

Shane R said:
Having received the file and looked over the contents, the canonical exam is 9 pages of questions: 64 in all. The subjects are: The Bible (18), Church History (14), Dogmatic Theology (17), The Sacraments (5), Canon Law (10). The expected answer ranges from a sentence to a paragraph or a fleshed out essay in some instances. We may use whatever resources we have at hand and deem helpful but are not to quote other authors directly, except for the formularies and the Bible. We have 40 days to complete it and submit to the bishop.

Good luck with that. I got asked What's the first thing you say to a woman who knocks on the door and says 'I've just shot my husband'? My response was the essentially Anglican Come in and have a cup of tea. I was then asked Why would you say that? to which I responded So I could have time to work out the next thing to say!

Shane R · Aug 20, 2018

There is such a loaded question on the exam:
"My bishop is wrong. I do not have to obey him. Comment."

Philip_B · Aug 20, 2018

Shane R said:
There is such a loaded question on the exam:
"My bishop is wrong. I do not have to obey him. Comment."

Episcopacy is a very good form of Ecclesial Governance, only mucked up by having Bishops!

Ignatius wrote to Polycarp 'where is the Bishop, there is the Church'. It is a matter of some deliberation before one could get to a position of not needing to obey one's Bishop. In the first instance I think it is important that one gets the Bishops mind on the matter which you believe is in error. It is clear that the Bishop may be wrong in one thing, that does not make the Bishop wrong in all things. If on due reflection, and perhaps discussion with the Bishop and other wise and learned counsel, you find that you are still convinced the Bishop is in error, then you should meet with the Bishop and discuss the matter.

The Bishops authority is limited, and one is expected to follow their Godly Counsel. The Bishop would be on dangerous ground if asking you to do something against scripture, or the received wisdom of the Church. In the final analysis, the decision not to obey the Bishop is a breach of ecclesial discipline, and not to be entered into lightly, and if one finds oneself in the position where you are unable to obey the Bishop in some matter, the first person who really needs to be told is the Bishop. Open and honest communication is the key.

____

It reminds me of other dangerous questions, like 'does my bum look big in this?' or the fabulous question from a philosophy paper 'Is this a good question?'

Paidiske · Aug 20, 2018

Oh, yes, I got asked a similar question about obedience.

As I recall, my answer was something like, "If it's something that doesn't really matter, my place is to suck it up. But if it's a real problem, there needs to be room for loyal protest." (I had the abuse cover-ups in mind, it must be said. Would I obey my bishop if he told me to cover up abuse? Not for all the kingdoms of the world...)

I'm a bit confused, though, Shane. Haven't you done your theology degree? Why do they feel the need to examine you on it now? I mean, I understand personal questions about readiness, but I would have thought they'd figure if you've got your degree then you've got enough clues about Biblical studies, etc?

Shane R · Aug 20, 2018

Paidiske said:
Oh, yes, I got asked a similar question about obedience.

As I recall, my answer was something like, "If it's something that doesn't really matter, my place is to suck it up. But if it's a real problem, there needs to be room for loyal protest." (I had the abuse cover-ups in mind, it must be said. Would I obey my bishop if he told me to cover up abuse? Not for all the kingdoms of the world...)

I'm a bit confused, though, Shane. Haven't you done your theology degree? Why do they feel the need to examine you on it now? I mean, I understand personal questions about readiness, but I would have thought they'd figure if you've got your degree then you've got enough clues about Biblical studies, etc?

The problem here in the US is that there are only a handful of Anglican seminaries and most of them are run by TEC and rather suspect in my circles. And we get a lot of enquirers who were Methodist or Nazarene or whatever and discovered the value of good liturgy. My own alma mater is 'non-denominational' with a fairly charismatic bent; though I did some additional work through our proprietary seminary (Greek, Spiritual Formation, and the NT Corpus). My sense is that the purpose of the canonical exam is to ensure folks have had an Anglican formation.

And a failed result may not boot one from the path to priesthood. Rather, it is much more likely that the Bishop will assign him some additional reading and/or coursework and delay his ordination for a time until he studies further. Then, he would be examined again to see if what was wanting had been supplied.

Paidiske · Aug 20, 2018

Oh okay.

I think we manage that by basically saying "Here is a list of things you must have covered in your studies." Mostly we do go through Anglican seminaries, but if we haven't, we still need to show that we've covered all the things the diocese considers necessary. Quite a few people who come from other traditions end up going back to college to do Anglican studies and one or two other units to tick everything off the list.

Then the interviews get to be about fun things like your personal prayer life, your family life, and whatever else the examining chaplains feel like grilling you on!

Anyone up for a chat thread?

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