Anyone up for a chat thread?

Naomi4Christ · Aug 19, 2017

We just do the Messy holiday week.

The characteristics of Messy Church is that parents are involved with their children, and that you have a structure similar to a church service, i.e. Welcome, prayer, singing, some kind of lesson.

It's a good way to introduce unchurched families. It's a great way to reach out to your community and offer pastoral support.

Naomi4Christ · Aug 19, 2017

shanethetheologian said:
My mother in law died yesterday - of some form of cancer. I did not know her well but we did try to let her live with us for a while. That ended when she pushed my wife's buttons so hard that she tried to overdose on pills. She was estranged from one of her other daughters until about two weeks ago. That old lady had much to answer for, but I hope that she found mercy at the last. She was a troubled soul.

I remember taking her to church once, and she acted like we had tried to poison her after she took the wine. She had been an alcoholic for some years. There is a lesson in that somewhere.

Sorry to hear this.

Paidiske · Aug 19, 2017

Naomi4Christ said:
It's a good way to introduce unchurched families. It's a great way to reach out to your community and offer pastoral support.

Unfortunately, what seems to have happened here is that it's attracted some families who were regulars (or tried to be) at our main service, and now they only (sometimes) come to messy church. As far as I know we don't get anyone at messy church who wasn't originally at one of our other services. So it's perceived as having divided and weakened our congregation rather than attracting new people.

I suspect it needs a lot of work put into it.

Naomi4Christ · Aug 19, 2017

Paidiske said:
Unfortunately, what seems to have happened here is that it's attracted some families who were regulars (or tried to be) at our main service, and now they only (sometimes) come to messy church. As far as I know we don't get anyone at messy church who wasn't originally at one of our other services. So it's perceived as having divided and weakened our congregation rather than attracting new people.

I suspect it needs a lot of work put into it.

That's unfortunate. Do these families come to a your other services when Messy Church is not running? Are they the ones who are making a Messy Church happen?

Are you in a position to have a review of all your services? Are any of these young families represented on PCC?
Can you run Messy Church during the week so that it doesn't replace Sunday.

It's a tricky one. We have a monthly evening service where we hope to attract young people (20/30s) and for students to invite their friends. What actually happens is we get about 50 people who were already at one of the morning services, and very few guests. They don't see this as an alternative to church, but an add on. It might help that we have a sermon series in the morning, so they have to come if they want to follow the story.

Paidiske · Aug 19, 2017

Mostly the messy church families seem to have stopped being at the morning services. If by "making it happen" you mean, are they doing all the work, no, not really. Usually they take it in turns to cook, but the rest is done by myself and one other volunteer. And while the other volunteer is on the parish council, no one else from that group is.

Probably there could be a review of all services, but I'm not sure whether that's what I want to do. I don't really intend to mess with the mornings much, at least in the foreseeable future. I haven't directly asked that question yet about putting it during the week (I know that's what the official messy church recommendations are), but my guess would be that they won't be keen. Weekdays are hard enough already.

And this is the problem, at rock bottom: life is busy and families have too many things on. It's very rare for anyone to prioritise church to the point of giving something else a miss, so we tend to be at the mercy of their sporting, music and other extra-curricular activities. And all of those things are good, so it's hard to argue with parents that church is important enough to say "I'm sorry, x won't be able to go to that competition/play in that team/be in the band, because worship is more important."

And until they do that... it's very hard to build thriving ministries with people who only come when there's nothing else on.

Naomi4Christ · Aug 19, 2017

Messy Church is marketed as a church service, so the families who come are doing nothing wrong. I would suspect that they aren't really being "fed" unless they come to a deeper worship service or midweek bible study, for example.

You put on a service and its successful, but it is cannabalising your main service and dividing your church family. I don't think Messy Church is necessarily the problem, although it may well be the catalyst.

We split our main congregation into two when we were doing building work. We went with a more traditional service and a contemporary service with children's groups. All the older folk went to the traditional service (unless they stayed with their children/grandchildren) and young people and families went to the contemporary service.

That was 20 years ago, and people are still identified as being 9 o'clockers and 11.15-ers. Both congregations have grown over the years, which is why we have persevered. We have worked really hard to bring together the two congregations a few times a year, such as Mothering Sunday, Nativity and Christmas morning. Our house party is mixed, as are some of our mission activities. Home groups align with the services.

Do you have a church development plan? This is something we review every 5 years or so here. For us, in our church, we went through this process a couple of years ago, and we highlighted areas that we needed to address in light of changing demographics in our community, etc. It led to a realignment of all the services we offer, both on Sundays and through the week. It also meant working towards a balanced and representative PCC.

And lots and lots of prayer.

Paidiske · Aug 19, 2017

We have a "mission action plan" which is I'm guessing the same sort of thing. Since I'm brand new here, we are planning to review that over coming months. The common complaint about it at the moment is that it's a really sound document that's been ignored.

Ah well. Nobody ever said this job would be easy...

Naomi4Christ · Aug 20, 2017

Paidiske said:
Ah well. Nobody ever said this job would be easy...

Ha, ha! One of my vicar's favourite lines is, "they didn't teach me that in theological college".

There must be so many churches that have put together planning committees, who faithfully and prayerfully fulfilled their remits, yet their plans sit on a shelf somewhere. Putting talk into action can be so hard. Lots of parallels with the Parable of the Sower, I think.

Paidiske · Aug 20, 2017

Naomi4Christ said:
Ha, ha! One of my vicar's favourite lines is, "they didn't teach me that in theological college".

Said that this very evening about food handling regulations. I have no clue; none!

Naomi4Christ · Aug 20, 2017

Paidiske said:
Said that this very evening about food handling regulations. I have no clue; none!

I'm sure you have ladies of the church who own food handling. I know we do. I haven't been trained in using the dishwasher, so I am very sorry not to be helping out there!

Paidiske · Aug 20, 2017

Apparently we have a parishioner who has a business teaching others food handling. I'm hoping I can pick his brains...

Naomi4Christ · Aug 20, 2017

BTW, our Diocese is incredibly helpful with things like food hygiene training. I don't deny them our Parish Share when I know it is going to serving the parishes.

Paidiske · Aug 20, 2017

Do not get me started on my diocese...

Naomi4Christ · Aug 20, 2017

Paidiske said:
Apparently we have a parishioner who has a business teaching others food handling. I'm hoping I can pick his brains...

It's not that hard - basically how to handle chicken (where to store it in the fridge, separating raw and cooked, making sure it's cooked all the way through.

Naomi4Christ · Aug 20, 2017

Paidiske said:
Do not get me started on my diocese...

Our attitude is that they serve us, rather than the other way around.

Paidiske · Aug 20, 2017

Apparently there's more to it; we have to keep a log book of every time we serve food, and the precautions taken, or something? I need to learn more. I've never had to worry about it before!

It's not that the diocese doesn't serve us, exactly, it's that they struggle to deliver on a lot of even very necessary things. Under budgeted, under staffed, and trying to run everything on good will, mostly.

Naomi4Christ · Aug 20, 2017

Paidiske said:
Apparently there's more to it; we have to keep a log book of every time we serve food, and the precautions taken, or something? I need to learn more. I've never had to worry about it before!

Really, even tea and biscuits? We have to keep logs when we are cooking, i.e. temperature probes of the food.

I imagine food hygiene is really important in Australia with you climate.

Naomi4Christ · Aug 20, 2017

Is your church fairly small in that you are getting involved in this kind of stuff?

Paidiske · Aug 20, 2017

I don't think tea and biscuits, but given I only discovered the existence of this log book today, I'm still completely ignorant of the conditions around it.

Food hygiene is a big deal here, yes. Especially in summer, food poisoning can happen very easily.

Not sure what you'd think of as "fairly small"? We average about 50 on a Sunday. But since there are no other paid staff, I do tend to be a bit of a generalist.

Naomi4Christ · Aug 20, 2017

You need volunteers!

There was once a vicar who took to watching trains run though his town. When asked why he watched the trains every day, he said that these where the only things moving in his parish that he didn't have to push.

(Sorry, that's and oldie but goodie)

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