Anyone else get to the point in doubting God exists that they start not to care or fear hell?
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Anyone else
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Those are two different issues.
Why we believe in God must have a well founded basis. We are to give reasons for our faith. Many Christians seem to be a bit short on this basis for believing.
Avoiding Hell is NOT the focus of Scripture. Rather it is Father's unrelenting love, that eventually required Christ's sacrifice. God would not give up on His beloved humanity.
Writing to a young church Paul says:
Eph 1:4-6 In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. NIV
John, writing later, repeats that theme.
1 John 4:18-19 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. NIV
Jesus Himself said:
John 3:16-17 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. NIV
Jesus came to give us life, His Life, not a perpetual guilt trip and fear of Hell.
It's fine to walk away from such a negative Salvation. But now go on and find the real Jesus.
John
NZ
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No see, for two years I have been doubting the existence of God with people telling me, trust he will save you despite your small faith or you must believe to be saved. I can't do those things. It is like saying believe in Santa but if he does exist I don't want to go to hell but know I am starting to not even worry about hell.
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I agree with you totally. I faced that issue when I went to university. There was a complete discontinuity between what I heard at church (Baptist) and the concepts I was being exposed to in my studies. I went through some very unsettling times for a few years while, bit by bit, I was able to develop a far wider and better informed basis for a truly relevant faith.
I refuse to live from a dualistic i.e divided worldview where my faith does not interact meaningfully and robustly with the spectrum of life and the complexity of humanity. I now have a pretty satisfactory worldview shaped by biblical values and that make sense both intellectually and experientially.
I am envious of the amount of really good information that is now readily available to help people discover a better grounded basis for their faith. Feel free to PM me if you want some links, or want to ask away.
John
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Sure I would like some links. I have studied both sides for years though Christianity and atheism and I just can't know. I wish that God could just know I don't want to go to hell if it is there and that be enough.
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Fear of Hell is far away from what should be our motivations. That is just unhealthy.
Some links. Two sites with a wide range of topics well presented by and large are:
The Veritas Forum American based
bethinking.org UK based
Both have printed and downloadable material available.
Christian Worldview Click on the Much More tab in each section. There is a range of thought provoking material there, depending on your inclinations.
You're Included | Grace Communion International has 30 minute discussions which you can download for some refreshingly different biblical teaching and comment
"Surprised By Hope' By N T Wright may expand your thinking well beyond a fear of hell faith. It is very readable and written by one the world's outstanding NT scholars.
That should keep you busy for a while. From your brief comments It seems to me that jettisoning your current faith is a good idea, provided you get a much better replacement and meet the a Jesus very different from what you have been told about.
Bless you
John
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Maybe you should stop worrying about Hell and focus on God. Ok, so you have doubt, let Him work on that for you. Filling you with His love and trust. Accept the doubt right now, that is your hurdle. But this doubt, this void you think can NEVER be fullfilled, that is where God will be greater than you. Let Him be. Don't ask how. Don't ask when. BUT, trust Him, as you would a parent who knows best and let HIM take care of it. This is where you need to start your new journey.
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Johnnz I watched the videos. Some I had seen. I always no matter what I watch or read come to the conclusion we can't know. So we have to be given faith maybe I was not chosen to have it.
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hollyda
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You are not helping yourself by asking these questions here. Have you contacted a therapist? Have you made sure they are experienced in OCD? If not, you're just furthering your agony. We'll help you, but you have to promise to help yourself, too. And that means seeking professional, licensed help for your OCD.
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Maybe your questions and doubts aren't intellectual but reflect an inner tendency that makes any self belief too hard? That would b a very different issue.
John
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John
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> I totally get [bless and do not curse]that pastor bob I totally do. I have studied arguments for and against God for two years all the evidence has led me to I don't know. I fear hell [bless and do not curse]less and less everyday. I just want to know how to be saved. [bless and do not curse]I don't even want to not [bless and do not curse]doubt whenever I think about not doubting I think it is more rational but that isn't fighting my OCD right? Why is it I would rather doubt and hang onto than push it back for God. [bless and do not curse]I can't grasp the concept of how I just believe and trust in Jesus. I don't see how I can just do that. I can't change my heart and mind and alacazam just trust.
Then accept the consequences of your predictions like a grownup. Nobodywho disbelieves in God fears hell; to the extent that you fear hell, you believe in God. It's a matter of simple logic. To say that you don't believe that there is a God but are afraid of going to hell is like saying that you never go outside but are afraid of getting sunburned anyway. I am not qualified to deal with psychosis, Michelle, and only a crazy person would be afraid of something they don't believe is reall.
In any case, taking what you say at face value, your problem is beyond the scope of the Group and I simply can't help you. I'm truly sorry, but there it is.
@@@@!! My therapist bailed, the only pastor that made some since bailed.
I just want to know how to trust and believe God exists if you can't, no one not even pastor bob has been able to explain this.
And why I want my doubt and am starting not to fear hell.
The top two OCD providers here are self pay, the second best is booked but I pleaded with her to help me or sway me to someone helpful.
Then accept the consequences of your predictions like a grownup. Nobodywho disbelieves in God fears hell; to the extent that you fear hell, you believe in God. It's a matter of simple logic. To say that you don't believe that there is a God but are afraid of going to hell is like saying that you never go outside but are afraid of getting sunburned anyway. I am not qualified to deal with psychosis, Michelle, and only a crazy person would be afraid of something they don't believe is reall.
In any case, taking what you say at face value, your problem is beyond the scope of the Group and I simply can't help you. I'm truly sorry, but there it is.
@@@@!! My therapist bailed, the only pastor that made some since bailed.
I just want to know how to trust and believe God exists if you can't, no one not even pastor bob has been able to explain this.
And why I want my doubt and am starting not to fear hell.
The top two OCD providers here are self pay, the second best is booked but I pleaded with her to help me or sway me to someone helpful.
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Hi, you say you don't fear hell, that is right. God doesn't want you to fear hell neither does He save you because you fear hell. He save you because He loves you. Other people have to fight to be free from fear of hell.
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How is wanting my doubt and not a Christian therapist ocd? I want to know how to trudt a God I doubt in that he will save me if I trust him. I have to do that to be saved.
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dabro
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I never doubted God existed. I always knew thru my abnormal birth as a Child of God. I've heard and seen things that ppl can't imagen and it kick started my faith so no, I've never had trouble in that area. But what problem I do have is that when I saw all those revelations God was mad at me and I have felt this way for four yr's. But trust me Raven when you start to see the light it's like getting a second chance at life.
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Michelle, look. I will say these things one last time. Then I am going to give you [bless and do not curse]the opportunity to respond to my private email address. I am going to remove you from the Group because it can't help you- or rather, you won't let it help you. You will be welcome to return if you can satisfy me that you are willing to reject your irrationality and are willing to let us help you- and if we agree that the whole issue is, in fact, OCD.
Otherwise, addressing it in the context of a group about OCD would obviously be inappropriate.
As I see it, right now you don't want help. If you ever do- if you ever decide to deal with these issues rationally- you will be more than welcome to come back to the Group. But we're a group for the spiritual implications of OCD, not of willful irrationality.
If you didn't believe in God, you wouldn't be asking the question you ask below. People aren't concerned about the behavior of gods they don't believe exist.
Your "research" into whether or not there is a God would more correctly be called "obsessing." One does not determine what one believes through obsessing, or what is true, either. In fact, one cannot. Truth is not the goal of obsessing. The goal of obsessing is making the anxiety stop. Since the anxiety is caused by a broken brain and is not really about whether or not there is a God (which is why you demand an irrational standard of proof you wouldn't apply to anything else), no amount of obsessing will bring peace. Hence, your inability to decide whether or not there is a God. You're right; no amount of obsessing, and no number of arguments, would decide the matter for you, because it's not really about whether or not there is a God. It's about making the anxiety stop.
You may not want to believe that there is a God, but you do. People who do not believe in God do not fear going to hell. They do not ask whether the God they do not believe in will forgive them. Anyone who does has psychological issues which have nothing to do with atheism or agnosticism. It simply isn't rational.
Nor is it rational to demand 100% proof for whether or not there is a God- or for that matter, for anything else. We've tried over and over to get you to at least think rationally about that, but you refuse. You say that no amount of evidence would lead you to believe in God, and I believe you, because the issue isn't whether or not there is a God. The issue is to whether you can get rid of the anxiety by achieving a level of certainty which simply is not available for anything. It is impossible to prove anything to a 100% certainty.
If you are psychotic, I can't help you. I'm not qualified. If, as I believe, this entire matter is OCD, then I can help you only if you are willing to helped. But your refuse to let me help you. You insist on your obsessions. Yousimply ignore everything I or anyone else in the Group say and say the same things in responseover and over, repeating yourself in an endless cycle as if there were nobody else involved in the conversation but you.
You choose to think irrationally about the matter. You choose to demand an impossible standard of proof. You are therefore responsible for the result. We have done everything possible to convince you to think ratinally, but you simply refuse.
I do not believe that you even understand the arguments for and against the existence of God. But again, that's not really the issue. The issue is making the anxiety stop, and the only way to make the anxiety stop is to absolutely, conclusively, and once and for all achieve 100% proof that there either is or isn't a God. Or, alternatively, you can fight your OCD and accept that the anxiety isn't going to stop, and deal with the question rationally. You will never have 100% certainty in this life that there is a God, and you will never have 100% certainty that there isn't. You have to do what the rest of the human race does, and form your opinion on the basis of where you see the evidence leading you. Yes, it is possible to rationally consider the evidence and reach the conclusion that it is impossible to decide either way. But in that case, you need to accept what I am about to say next.
If you do not trust in Christ as your Savior, then no, you will not be forgiven for anything. You will go to hell. That risk comes with the territory if you end up being an agnostic. It is predicated on the assumption that, as St. Paul says in Romans 1, ample evidence exists of God's existence to satisfy anyone who asks the question in good faith.
That trust- faith- can come only as a gift, through the Word. But thatis a different thing from believing whether or not there is a God. Certainly faith is impossible unless you believe that God exists. But anybody can reach that conclusion by weighing the evidence. Again, it goes without saying that to require 100% evidence is to decide in advance not to believe that there is a God.
To the person who believes, all sins are forgiven without exception.
Not wanting to have a Christian threapist (but being willing to have a non-Christian one) isn't a matter where a question of forgiveness even arises. Like demanding 100% proof before you will accept that there is a God, it is simply another way of deciding in advance that you're not going to believe, not because of the evidence but because you just don't want to.
And if you don't want to, fine. But going to hell if you're wrong comes with the territory. Nobody makes you not want to.
> If I trust God to forgive me for not wanting the doubt to stop ( which do u think is OCD?) and not wanting to have a Christian therapist. Will he forgive me? I don't know why I want these things? Today I am going to try not to stress and hang on to Jesus. This isn't a promise to anyone but him.
No where is he telling me how to trust a God I barely believe exists. Secondly isn't he basically saying faith ( which is the same as trust, right) is a gift so why is he telling me to trust if he knows I wasn't given that gift?
Otherwise, addressing it in the context of a group about OCD would obviously be inappropriate.
As I see it, right now you don't want help. If you ever do- if you ever decide to deal with these issues rationally- you will be more than welcome to come back to the Group. But we're a group for the spiritual implications of OCD, not of willful irrationality.
If you didn't believe in God, you wouldn't be asking the question you ask below. People aren't concerned about the behavior of gods they don't believe exist.
Your "research" into whether or not there is a God would more correctly be called "obsessing." One does not determine what one believes through obsessing, or what is true, either. In fact, one cannot. Truth is not the goal of obsessing. The goal of obsessing is making the anxiety stop. Since the anxiety is caused by a broken brain and is not really about whether or not there is a God (which is why you demand an irrational standard of proof you wouldn't apply to anything else), no amount of obsessing will bring peace. Hence, your inability to decide whether or not there is a God. You're right; no amount of obsessing, and no number of arguments, would decide the matter for you, because it's not really about whether or not there is a God. It's about making the anxiety stop.
You may not want to believe that there is a God, but you do. People who do not believe in God do not fear going to hell. They do not ask whether the God they do not believe in will forgive them. Anyone who does has psychological issues which have nothing to do with atheism or agnosticism. It simply isn't rational.
Nor is it rational to demand 100% proof for whether or not there is a God- or for that matter, for anything else. We've tried over and over to get you to at least think rationally about that, but you refuse. You say that no amount of evidence would lead you to believe in God, and I believe you, because the issue isn't whether or not there is a God. The issue is to whether you can get rid of the anxiety by achieving a level of certainty which simply is not available for anything. It is impossible to prove anything to a 100% certainty.
If you are psychotic, I can't help you. I'm not qualified. If, as I believe, this entire matter is OCD, then I can help you only if you are willing to helped. But your refuse to let me help you. You insist on your obsessions. Yousimply ignore everything I or anyone else in the Group say and say the same things in responseover and over, repeating yourself in an endless cycle as if there were nobody else involved in the conversation but you.
You choose to think irrationally about the matter. You choose to demand an impossible standard of proof. You are therefore responsible for the result. We have done everything possible to convince you to think ratinally, but you simply refuse.
I do not believe that you even understand the arguments for and against the existence of God. But again, that's not really the issue. The issue is making the anxiety stop, and the only way to make the anxiety stop is to absolutely, conclusively, and once and for all achieve 100% proof that there either is or isn't a God. Or, alternatively, you can fight your OCD and accept that the anxiety isn't going to stop, and deal with the question rationally. You will never have 100% certainty in this life that there is a God, and you will never have 100% certainty that there isn't. You have to do what the rest of the human race does, and form your opinion on the basis of where you see the evidence leading you. Yes, it is possible to rationally consider the evidence and reach the conclusion that it is impossible to decide either way. But in that case, you need to accept what I am about to say next.
If you do not trust in Christ as your Savior, then no, you will not be forgiven for anything. You will go to hell. That risk comes with the territory if you end up being an agnostic. It is predicated on the assumption that, as St. Paul says in Romans 1, ample evidence exists of God's existence to satisfy anyone who asks the question in good faith.
That trust- faith- can come only as a gift, through the Word. But thatis a different thing from believing whether or not there is a God. Certainly faith is impossible unless you believe that God exists. But anybody can reach that conclusion by weighing the evidence. Again, it goes without saying that to require 100% evidence is to decide in advance not to believe that there is a God.
To the person who believes, all sins are forgiven without exception.
Not wanting to have a Christian threapist (but being willing to have a non-Christian one) isn't a matter where a question of forgiveness even arises. Like demanding 100% proof before you will accept that there is a God, it is simply another way of deciding in advance that you're not going to believe, not because of the evidence but because you just don't want to.
And if you don't want to, fine. But going to hell if you're wrong comes with the territory. Nobody makes you not want to.
> If I trust God to forgive me for not wanting the doubt to stop ( which do u think is OCD?) and not wanting to have a Christian therapist. Will he forgive me? I don't know why I want these things? Today I am going to try not to stress and hang on to Jesus. This isn't a promise to anyone but him.
No where is he telling me how to trust a God I barely believe exists. Secondly isn't he basically saying faith ( which is the same as trust, right) is a gift so why is he telling me to trust if he knows I wasn't given that gift?
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I would be glad to help any way I can.
Sure. As I see it, the role OCD plays is that it causes you to try to
banish the anxiety by setting an absurd level of proof that you would
need. It's not about weighing evidence; it's about making the anxiety
go away. Which doesn't work, since the anxiety is about OCD, not about
whether there's a God.
Yes, OCD is the doubting disease. And you fight it by refusing to
doubt irrationally. You use your brain to weigh evidence instead of
your gut.
What?!?! My brain doubts God is there.
Sure. As I see it, the role OCD plays is that it causes you to try to
banish the anxiety by setting an absurd level of proof that you would
need. It's not about weighing evidence; it's about making the anxiety
go away. Which doesn't work, since the anxiety is about OCD, not about
whether there's a God.
Yes, OCD is the doubting disease. And you fight it by refusing to
doubt irrationally. You use your brain to weigh evidence instead of
your gut.
What?!?! My brain doubts God is there.
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No, the trust is a gift. It's not something you "practice." Certainly
trying would be a good idea, though.
:'( omgoodness I am so tired.
trying would be a good idea, though.
:'( omgoodness I am so tired.
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