Any WOFER here who believes in Once Saved, Always saved

[Br_Rhoades]

Can anyone explain to me the Parable of the Sower (matthew 13) in relation to OSAS? It would seem to me that the seed can be sown (salvation/belief in Christ) and yet still wither and die or be choked up by things of this world....or have I got that wrong?

The seed is the planted word of God and the result is an indication of soil preparation. In the follow-up text you see Satan sows the bad seed of fear and God will not destroy the crop but waits and separates this crop out at harvest time. (1 Thess 4 :16-18) The crop is the effect of preaching the word, which brings fruit. The seed is the word of God sown the ground is the soul of man. (Ezekiel 36 : 25 – 28) I do not think that this has as much to do with the security of the believer as the effect and result that can be expected from the preaching of the gospel. Now as for the security of the believer, you can live in ‘free will’ fear if you like God will still love you. If that gives you more comfort to not know till you are before God your place in him, be free and walk in that ‘faith’. You know we all can agree on one thing we need to run to the Father and not away from Him, and we have to do it in faith in Jesus name. I would think if you want to get in a proof contest over OSAS that you go to the Baptist board, if you manage to get a Free Will Baptist and a Reformed Baptist you will have a cat fight big as Texas. I think that the WOF is not going to fall into the ‘OSAS’ shell, as the term is not from the Bible or found in the Bible. So if you are looking for a catfight I think you missed the point.

I will pitch another bone to you, I believe in backsliding. You see as a believer and new creation of Christ I was not in God’s will when I was a member of the ‘Church of Satan’ my ‘body’ and ‘soul’ were damaged to the point that the Holy Ghost told me that if I did not turn back to the Father when I did my body was going to get busted and I was going to go home like Ananias of Acts 5 : 1-6. I think that I would be like the prodigal son I messed up, you know that he could have died of starvation and that would have still been his son.

 

[Kebisoni]

Certainly not looking for a cat fight! (Struggling to try and not feel offended that you said that - but I'm going to trust that you really think the best of me and not the worst).

Obviously I'm not as far down the spiritual road as some people here and I'm just trying to understand better...hence the question!

I still struggle to think that some people - like the parable says - accept the word and start of great - but then bad times come along and they reject their faith and give up worshipping God....or they become too caught up with things in the world and sin - and though they worshipped and believed for a season, in time they fail to bear fruit and therefore no longer produce the seed they were first given....or as I read it no longer bear the image of Christ....who is living seed but become dead wheat....

Now....I personally find it hard to reconcile that with OSAS. I'm not saying OSAS is wrong...I'm trying to explore. And I have no wish to go off and start a fight with the Baptists anymore than here!

 

[Br_Rhoades]

Certainly not looking for a cat fight! (Struggling to try and not feel offended that you said that - but I'm going to trust that you really think the best of me and not the worst).

Obviously I'm not as far down the spiritual road as some people here and I'm just trying to understand better...hence the question!

I still struggle to think that some people - like the parable says - accept the word and start of great - but then bad times come along and they reject their faith and give up worshipping God....or they become too caught up with things in the world and sin - and though they worshipped and believed for a season, in time they fail to bear fruit and therefore no longer produce the seed they were first given....or as I read it no longer bear the image of Christ....who is living seed but become dead wheat....

Now....I personally find it hard to reconcile that with OSAS. I'm not saying OSAS is wrong...I'm trying to explore. And I have no wish to go off and start a fight with the Baptists anymore than here!

My heart understands your search and questions, I do not have any wish to harm that search. (I am a student too) My reply is that this topic can turn into a total catfight – I do not think it will on WOF because as I have said the term ‘OSAS’ is not in the Bible and clearly is not a point to divide over. If one is looking for the ‘flame war’ version of this topic I would think this could be found on a nice Baptist board. I have a lot of hope that we can just stand in faith on the Word of God. I find comfort in my understanding of the security of the believer; I do not however believe that you must hold the same view on this topic to be part of the body of Christ or even WOF. Kenneth Copland has from what I have read avoided this topic in a big way as he would not wish to sew division. How you get saved and live a victorious life is much more important that the ‘OSAS’ topic. You see if we are looking for and excuse to sin or even a reason not to sin we are testing the edge of our boundary, on the other hand if we draw into the Father in worship and obedience then that boundary is not a problem is it. I think that at times of extreme distress we lose a brother or sister to destruction, then we hope for that security. But if I see one that is in service to sin and the lust of the flesh I do have to question the truth of that persons ‘regeneration’ and treat them like a [very small joke] Re‘publican’[end small joke] or sinner. Now they will go before the Father and will stand face to face with the choice that they have made, but it is my job to proclaim the truth and prepare the ground not to be the judge of the result. I have great joy in good fruit, and a full harvest but even if the fruit is small it is still the goodness of God that has supplied.

 

[Kebisoni]

Thanks Brother Rhoades - appreciated.

 

[Kebisoni]

I've been thinking about this most of the day - whilst washing up and ironing and stuff - and I think OSAS is right - but you can be saved and not living in the will of God for your life....and if you do that it effects both the happiness and blessings you receive now and in eternity and that is what makes all the difference to me.

I've never heard this debate before...and never really thought about it. Thanks for helping me think everyone.

 

[Andrew]

Okay I see what you're saying Andrew about how God gave us faith to be saved and we could not be saved without Him giving us faith and empowering us to be saved. I agree with you that we need God's intervention and gift of faith to be saved.

Good we agree.

But it doesn't make sense to say that once someone has decided to become a Christian they are completely and totally incapable, no matter what they do or say or believe or anything to become 'unsaved' or a non-christian if they so desire. It doesn't seem to make sense to say that Christians are totally incapable of falling away, even though they still have free will and can choose to reject and renounce God.

Why should it make sense? Since when does God's grace make sense? It is of the heart, not mind.

By saying all that, you are not giving any credit to the work of the Holy Spirit, nor to the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit, and that love constrains us. You are also totally ignoring the new birth, the new heart of flesh, the new creation in Christ -- behold all things are new. And you are saying that we have the power to undo the greatest miracle, when in the first place we had no power to perform that greatest miracle of rebirth. You are saying that God like man, takes back what He gives. then it is no longer a gift becos there are strings attached.

Again, as I've explained, if you could not of your own free will just decide to renounce sinnership and turn to Christ (w/o the grace of God), how is it now, after being born again, you can somehow be able to unsave yourself?

In short, with the new heart, with the new creation, you will not want to renounce Christ. You may be forced to do it under trying circumstances but you will not want to do it in your heart.

I do not care about so and so who was once a Christian and then now is a Mulsim or Buddhist. It's always a so and so did this story. Or I know of so and so who .... Forget these. You don't know what they believe. Only God knows. I think I've also dealt with this type of question already.

 

[Andrew]

Hebrews 2:1-4 NKJV says: Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

These verses clearly say that we can neglect our salvation and drift away. They definitely support what I'm saying.

godson777

If you read the whole of Hebrews at one sitting, you'll find that it is written to the Hebrews. Not every book or passage in the Bible is written to the Christian. Some are for the Jews, some are for the church. This is something you must understand when doing Bible Study. Some things are in the context of the OC, some are in the context of the NC.

What a lot of ppl do is lump everything together and say that everything is for the church today.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not sayng that parts of the Bible are to be thrown out. If I write a letter to Mr A about how to fix his Honda car, you can benefit greatly too by reading the letter becos you want to fix your Ford car.

So as I was saying Hebrews is written to the Hebrews. In Chap 1, it talks about God speaking to the forefathers thru the prophets. Now unless you are a Jew, God didnt speak to your forefathers thru these prophets, neither did he speak to my chinese ancestors thru people like Isaiah or Elijah. It also talks a lot about the animal sacrifices of Judaism.

So all the passages in Hebrews that seems to say that a Christian can lose his salvation is actually refering to the Jews rejecting the Christ and not entering His rest.

That's why Hebrews talks about the Israelites wandering in the desert and not entering the promised land (a shadow of the true rest in Christ) becos of unbelief. So they wandered for 40 years and all those in unbelief died in the desert w/o entering the promised land.

Likewise, the author of Hebrews, which I believe is Paul, is now warning the Jews: Look DONT make the same mistake your forefathers did in the desert. Now the true rest of God has come. Dont make the same mistake of not believing. Dont turn your back on the final sacrifice -- the true lamb of God. the animal sacrifices are just shadows, the real substance has come. Don't reject it. Your forefathers did not enter the promised land becos of unbelief, now here's a second chance. When you hear his voice today, dont harden your hearts like your forefathers, and die in the wilderness, and not enter the true rest of God in Christ. If you turn your back on this sacrifice of Jesus there is no more hope for you. This is it.

God gave the Hebrews another 40 years to repent. Sadly, they didnt (most Jews rejected Christ) and in AD70 (40 years later) the romans burned down their temple and killed many of them. that was the fearful expectation to come.

So do you see what Hebrews is about? Now that I've have given you the background, read those passages again in light of it.

 

[Andrew]

I was thinking about asking you if you had read Bro. Hagins' book you mentioned or not. I was listening to Pastor Prince today on his tape "Right Believing produces Right Living" where he was talking about the scripture that Bro. Hagin used, that he said Jesus told him about! Hmmm, I would say God is at work on something here......do you know if your Pastor P. has read that and what his thoughts on it were? [/color][/size][/font]

'Course, I also was thinking about the other part Pastor P. was preaching on about Paul and going back to Jerusalem too, because the first time I had heard him preach that, I had just recently listened to a teaching by Keith Moore on the same thing, in his "Being Spirit Led" tape series, and he talked about it being something else entirely! LOL!
Because I know that your Pastor has such an awesome revelation of grace, among other things, that some of the other teachers haven't rec'd yet, I am not going to get bent out of shape over either thing, because, #1 I ain't planning on gettin' unsaved, & #2 neither of the two diff views of that make any diff to my salvation! LOL! But I was curious to know if Pastor P. had read Bro. Hagin's book and what he thought about it. I mean, it was from a vision he had with Jesus, (& I know, guys......if it ain't in the Bible.......just be patient with me, okay?) (that remark wasn't for you Andrew, just in cas you were wondering!).......and after all, we're talking Brother Hagin, here, ya know? So, I was wondering, if the scripture that was used could possibly have more than one interpetation? As far as what Kenneth C. believes, got me! I don't know if I have ever heard him teach on that and I don't know if I have it on any of the tapes of his I haven't listened to yet......someone else's tapes have gotten in the way!!!!! (By the way, my 2 boxes came today!!!!! Yippppeeeee! Fresh Manna from Heaven! Thank you Jesus!!!!!! Maybe that will keep the "Duckies" feed for a while! LOL!) Anyway, my guess would be, that Kenneth would be in line with what Bro. Hagin and or Oral Roberts taught on that subject. If I ever find out, I'll let you know!

Hi lovesblessing,

I think he's prob read the book though i don't know for sure. all i know is that our church's stand is OSAS.

first let me say that Hagin only believes that a mature Spirit-filled believer can lose his salvation, not a baby Christian. also my pastor has the highest respect for Hagin, quoted him many times in his sermons and even mecca-ed to Tulsa and had Hagin lay hands on him. Also, Rev Hagin Jr was here a few weeks ago.

anyway, I will just share with you why I dont believe in OSNAS. A few years back, when I had my own spiritual revival and got baptised in the Spirit and spoke in tongues, I was so charged up and full of joy and peace.

But one night, when I read that chapter where Hagin talked about his vision and how a mature Spirit-filled believer could lose his salvation, I got scared and discouraged. What I heard and kind of believed robbed me of a lot of the peace and joy I had. But I thot well, this is Hagin and this is Jesus talking to him, so it must be true.

Anyway, it stuck in my mind but never quite settled well in my spirit. then a few months later, when i started attending my current church and heard the pastor preach OSAS and deal with the OSNAS issue, i felt a burden lift, the fear gone, and assurance of salvation once again.

that's why i believe OSAS and not OSNAS. i use this principle:

Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

also, does it take away from the finished work of Christ or does it exalt Christ and His finished work? To me, OSNAS takes away from Christ and says you have a part to play in salvation. In heaven, it's worthy is the Lamb ...and YOU!


OSAS will always bring peace to the believer, esp the new believer who has not yet been clouded with all sorts of doctrines. they can sense it in their spirit. the peace that comes. OSNAS never brings peace. becos it basically tells the person that he's not really saved yet. that he has a lot to do to maintain his "salvation".

the annointing within will teach you. the Holy Spirit in you will bear witness with your spirit if what is heard/preached is truth. you will sense burdens lifted, fear dissipates, you will sense the love of God and His grace. if fear creeps in, if a heavy yoke is put on you and you feel condemned or tired after the preaching, it aint God.

so you see, we can debate all we want throwing scriptures here and there on the subject or who saw what vision and heard what from God. But at the end of the day, we still have to rely on the anointing within to tell lie from truth.

what i am saying is that sometimes, scripture alone is not enough. you need the Spirit too. Just like in Acts, the Word preached was not 'enough' . The Spirit was there to confirm it with signs and wonders. IOW the Word and the Spirit always go together.

anyway, that's my reason for believing OSAS.

 

[godson777]

Thankyou for your thoughts Andrew. You have given me some to think about. I will continue my study for the truth of God's Word.

 

[godson777]

OSAS will always bring peace to the believer, esp the new believer who has not yet been clouded with all sorts of doctrines. they can sense it in their spirit. the peace that comes. OSNAS never brings peace. becos it basically tells the person that he's not really saved yet. that he has a lot to do to maintain his "salvation".

Firstly, its not about what's nicer and easier to believe, its about believing what the Bible teaches - which isn't always what's the easiest to accept.

Secondly, when you are saved you are totally and completely saved. There is nothing more to do to be saved because you are as saved as you can be. "Maintaining" your salvation is not about works or anything like that. It's about 'maintiaining' or 'continuing to agree with' that belief in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and the confession of your mouth that Jesus is Lord. Don't make it sound as though OSNAS says that Christians are not totally saved and that they need to maintain their salvation by works. That sounds abit like straw man fallacy to me.

Jesus made it clear in the parable of the sower that people can be saved and then fall away. All I'm doing is agreeing with what I can see the scripture says.

 

[Andrew]

Firstly, its not about what's nicer and easier to believe, its about believing what the Bible teaches - which isn't always what's the easiest to accept.

godson777,

if you read my post again, you see that i wasn't talking about feelings or biases but the anointing within.The witness of the Spirit to our spirit regarding what we are hearing.

It's not as simple as just telling someone who disagrees with you to believe what the Bible teaches. To me I strongly believe the Bible teaches OSAS. To you its the opposite. So i can't say you don't believe what the Bible teaches and neither can you say I don't believe what the Bible teaches. Yet we still disagree on OSAS.

That's why you need to judge from the spirit, not just from a head understnding of scriptures. its the Spirit that guides us into all truth, not our intelligence at understanding and debating scriptures.

Secondly, when you are saved you are totally and completely saved. There is nothing more to do to be saved because you are as saved as you can be. "Maintaining" your salvation is not about works or anything like that. It's about 'maintiaining' or 'continuing to agree with' that belief in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and the confession of your mouth that Jesus is Lord. Don't make it sound as though OSNAS says that Christians are not totally saved and that they need to maintain their salvation by works. That sounds abit like straw man fallacy to me.

I've debated here long enough to know that its not a straw man thing. As long as you have to 'maintain' your salvation, whether its thru sacraments or thru daily confessions and 'offerings' for sins, or like you said, continuing to agree -- it boils down to the same thing -- works.

and your statement is also contradictory. first you say you are completely and totally saved. then you attach a condition to it -- you must continually confess Jesus as Lord. In the end, its the same thing again, you never really know if you are saved until you die becos there's something you must fulfill / do for the rest of your life.

And i believe there are even scriptures to say that it is God who will work in us and enable us to remain faithful ie always believing that Jesus is Lord. IOW even 'maintaining' our salvation so to speak is His work in us, His grace. Not our own works.

Jesus made it clear in the parable of the sower that people can be saved and then fall away. All I'm doing is agreeing with what I can see the scripture says.

the parable of the sower has got nothing to do with losing salvation my friend.

 

[godson777]

To me I strongly believe the Bible teaches OSAS. To you its the opposite. So i can't say you don't believe what the Bible teaches and neither can you say I don't believe what the Bible teaches. Yet we still disagree on OSAS.

True.

I've debated here long enough to know that its not a straw man thing. As long as you have to 'maintain' your salvation, whether its thru sacraments or thru daily confessions and 'offerings' for sins, or like you said, continuing to agree -- it boils down to the same thing -- works.

and your statement is also contradictory. first you say you are completely and totally saved. then you attach a condition to it -- you must continually confess Jesus as Lord. In the end, its the same thing again, you never really know if you are saved until you die becos there's something you must fulfill / do for the rest of your life.

Once again I think you are misunderstanding (or perhaps twisting) what I am saying. I'm not for a second suggesting that to 'maintain' your salvation you need to confess Jesus as Lord fives times a day or say a thousand hail mary's or anything like that.

Salvation is a gift. Even to the non-Christian God has given them salvation. However, they aren't yet saved because they havn't received the gift. The difference (or one of them) between Christians and sinners is that Christians have received the gift that has been laid infront of us. We receive it (generally speaking) by believing in our heart that God raised Jeusus from the dead, and by confessing that Jesus is Lord. So in the same way (generally speaking), if we were to stop believing in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, or confess that Jesus is not Lord we would be placing that gift back on to the ground in font of us where we picked it up from.

The bible never says or hints at the fact that a Christian cannot fall away. It is clear however that we must remain firm till the end to be saved.

the parable of the sower has got nothing to do with losing salvation my friend.

Would you mind expanding a little on this?

God bless.

 

[Andrew]

We receive it (generally speaking) by believing in our heart that God raised Jeusus from the dead, and by confessing that Jesus is Lord. So in the same way (generally speaking), if we were to stop believing in our heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, or confess that Jesus is not Lord we would be placing that gift back on to the ground in font of us where we picked it up from.

Here is where we disagree. It is not possible and I believe I have already explained it in previous posts. How do you reverse the rebirth (place down the gift so to speak)? You can't do it naturally, neither spiritually. Likewise, for a sinner, how can he just place the 'gift' of sinnership on the ground that was imputed to him by the first Adam?

The bible never says or hints at the fact that a Christian cannot fall away. It is clear however that we must remain firm till the end to be saved.

And we will remain firm my friend, but it is God who keeps us firm to the end, not our ability or diligence to remain firm. It is still His grace -- from grace to grace, faith to faith -- and grace will lead us home.

Here are a bunch of scriptures to confirm that:

Romans 14:4
4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

1 Corinthians 1:8
8 He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

1 Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

2 Corinthians 1:21
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

2 Thessalonians 3:3
3 But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 2:18
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Jude 1:24
24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--

 

[Andrew]

Would you mind expanding a little on this?

The parable of the sower is about the word of God being sown in different heart conditions.

For eg, when a sermon on divine healing is being preached, different people, based on the condition of their heart and how they listen, receive differently and act on it differently.

Some folks swallow everything gladly and run with it and are radical -- and they produce the hundredfold fruit eg. they get radically healed and live in divine health.

Others give say 60% attention and apply it 60% and get 60% fruit. Maybe they get a little healing here and there and live somewhat in divine health.

So it's not talking about Christians losing their salvation.

BTW: Your pastor will be preaching in my church in June

 

[godson777]

Matthew 13:19-23 says: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

Jesus makes the point that someone may "receive the word" (become a Christian), but when trouble and persecution come, He "falls away". This seems to support the idea that people can become Christians and then fall away.

Thankyou for that list of verses in your previous post! I will definitely have a closer look at them.

BTW: What church do you go to and where?

 

[Andrew]

Jesus makes the point that someone may "receive the word" (become a Christian), but when trouble and persecution come, He "falls away". This seems to support the idea that people can become Christians and then fall away.

No it does not my friend, if you mean losing one's salvation.

This is what I mean by taking non-clear-cut verses and using them to build a doctrine for OSNAS. Somehow, OSNAS folks always like to pluck obscure verses sometimes just a word or two like "falls away" and say "There you have it! You can lose your salvation!"

There are so many clear verses that support OSAS, why not focus on these and interpret those harder to understnd ones in the light of what is so sure?

BTW: What church do you go to and where?

I attend New Creation Church in Singapore. Yes Pastor Brian Houston as well as the Hillsong worship team have been here a few times. Awesome worship and awesome preaching