Any WOFER here who believes in Once Saved, Always saved

[Asaph]

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[godson777]

Thanks andrew for your posts. I believe this question probably holds the answer to what we've been discussing.

When we were saved did it involve any committment or decision on our part or was it all God who caused us to become His children? I guess that if we have the ability to choose God we would also have the ability to unchoose Him, however if He chose us and we didn't really make a decision to choose Him, then that would suggest that we will always be saved. What does the Word say?

 

[Asaph]

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[Andrew]

Thanks andrew for your posts. I believe this question probably holds the answer to what we've been discussing.

When we were saved did it involve any committment or decision on our part or was it all God who caused us to become His children? I guess that if we have the ability to choose God we would also have the ability to unchoose Him, however if He chose us and we didn't really make a decision to choose Him, then that would suggest that we will always be saved. What does the Word say?

It is actually something hard to understand for me at least. Why do I say this? On the one hand, I believe we do have a certain amt of freewill in the sense that when the altar call is given, for eg, you 'choose' to accept Christ. I mean, we weren't created robots w/o any free will. I hate to think that God in heaven just pressed a button, overruled our will and then we chose Him.

On the other hand, God did predestine (Romans) us and choose us from the foundation of the world. So does that mean that everything was already set in place? Yes somewhat. How is it poss. I think it's becos God lives outside time for He created time.

So how do you reconcile the 2? I dont know. I simply call it God's wisdom or a miracle when a person is saved. And I'm not going to lose sleep trying to figure it all out. I'm just going to enjoy my salvation. I think you shld too. But whatever the case, you cannot ignore the 2nd part. ie don't credit yourself totally for having 'chosen' God.

 

[Asaph]

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[godson777]

Sure God has chosen us, (and I don't understand this fully) but He doesn't force us - we also must choose Him.

Deuteronomy 30:9 says: I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

God's given us the choice to accept Him or reject Him. Sure God may have done stuff in your life to get your attention and make himself known to you, but you still had to choose Him. Since we have the option to choose Him, it makes sense that we also have the ability to unchoose Him, and so far no one has been able to prove otherwise.

The bible says that we must remain firm in Him to the end to be saved. If it tells us to remain in Him, that means we also have the option to not be in Him. If we are saved no matter what after we confess HIm as Lord (even if we renounce Him and turn to another 'religion') then there would be no reason for the bible to tell us to remain firm in Him until the end to be saved. So, since the bible tells us to remain firm in Him to the end to be saved that must mean that we have the option to not be in Him.

 

[Andrew]

Sure God has chosen us, (and I don't understand this fully) but He doesn't force us - we also must choose Him.

Deuteronomy 30:9 says: I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

God's given us the choice to accept Him or reject Him. Sure God may have done stuff in your life to get your attention and make himself known to you, but you still had to choose Him. Since we have the option to choose Him, it makes sense that we also have the ability to unchoose Him, and so far no one has been able to prove otherwise.

The bible says that we must remain firm in Him to the end to be saved. If it tells us to remain in Him, that means we also have the option to not be in Him. If we are saved no matter what after we confess HIm as Lord (even if we renounce Him and turn to another 'religion') then there would be no reason for the bible to tell us to remain firm in Him until the end to be saved. So, since the bible tells us to remain firm in Him to the end to be saved that must mean that we have the option to not be in Him.

Thanks Asaph for that reminder

godson777,

dont you think you are making it sound like you can bounce in and out of salvation just as you can bounce in and out of sinnerhood (when you were a sinner)?

Again, the point is that sinners cannot simply become non-sinners and righteous in God just by simply choosing too, apart from any grace from God. If that were true, then you dont even need preachers or the Holy Spirit or the Word. The sinner will be 'smart' enough to 'discover' how to get saved and even has the power to pass himself from death to life.

It's just impossible. Likewise for the person who is already saved.

 

[godson777]

Okay I see what you're saying Andrew about how God gave us faith to be saved and we could not be saved without Him giving us faith and empowering us to be saved. I agree with you that we need God's intervention and gift of faith to be saved.

But it doesn't make sense to say that once someone has decided to become a Christian they are completely and totally incapable, no matter what they do or say or believe or anything to become 'unsaved' or a non-christian if they so desire. It doesn't seem to make sense to say that Christians are totally incapable of falling away, even though they still have free will and can choose to reject and renounce God.

If you've got some more scripture that supports what you're saying I would love to read it, and I will always keep an open mind. Otherwise, this is what I believe at the moment because it seems to me that both scripture and logic support what im saying.

 

[godson777]

Hebrews 2:1-4 NKJV says: Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

These verses clearly say that we can neglect our salvation and drift away. They definitely support what I'm saying.

 

[Asaph]

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[Asaph]

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[Br_Rhoades]

If you are one, why did you belive in OSAS?

I believe it because I have found the security of the believer to be a part of the teaching of the Holy Bible and the nature of the Father in dealing with us a people. I would say as a generalization that God is not into abortion, we are made new creations in him and he will not abort that creation or forsake that creation. I was mad at God at one point in my life and got involved with the Church of Satan, I tried to un-do what God had done in my heart. I could not for all my dark efforts cut out the part of me that is Christ and live, I know many dark things now that trouble my soul at times but none could separate me from the Love of my heavenly Father. If you know how much he loves us you would never walk in fear again.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I am surprized that all the WoFers who have responded are OSAS.
I do not think that the mass of WoFers believe in OSAS.

 

[Kebisoni]

I know some people who claim to have been saved - but then nothing has changed in their lives (except they think they are bit more holy) - they are still immoral, mean, cruel and don't go to church.....and so just because they prayed the sinners prayer - they will get the same reception in heaven as someone who has tried every day of their lives to please God - to serve at cost - and even when it went against their nature and was very, very hard.....??

It kind of makes me feel I don't need to bother....God will accept me anyway.

I know that isn't very mature - but it is how it makes me feel. Perhaps I need to grow up.

But surely there is some justice? Or perhaps that is the point - we are all saved from justice - because Christ took the justice/punishment for us - and so we all just get the reward...um.....certainly one to think about.

I guess I am just struggling with some not very kind people who would call themselves Christians - but do nothing beyond that to prove it or live it out.

 

[Br_Rhoades]

I am surprized that all the WoFers who have responded are OSAS.
I do not think that the mass of WoFers believe in OSAS.

You know didaskalos; I think that most WOF are ‘OSAS’ it is just the dynamic of the term that creates the problem. It is like Baptist, I find so many unpleasant examples of that term that I have to put all type of modifiers and in the end I just like to say that I am a Bible believer. It is like the word said it and that settles it for me and if the word dose not fit my life style then my life style has to change. I think that many people who have the tea shirt and can even do the pentacostal two-step and wave and shout till they faint are only fans of Jesus, but that is not my call. I also think that many of my sour-faced passed away folks that would rather spit than be open in worship are 100% sold out for God, that also is not my call. In the end I have to answer to who I am in Christ from the Holy Bible before my Father in heaven and how I walked in love like my brother Jesus did with others as an example before me.

 

[Andrew]

I am surprized that all the WoFers who have responded are OSAS.
I do not think that the mass of WoFers believe in OSAS.

I'm still under the impression that WOFers are mostly OSNAS becos the late Hagin taught that it is possible for a Spirit-filled believer to lose his salvation. I read that in his controversial book, "I Believe In Visions".

And i think many WOFers may find it is 'hard' to say he's wrong becos he says it was what Jesus showed him in a vision.

BTW what do the Copelands believe?

 

[lovesblessing]

I'm still under the impression that WOFers are mostly OSNAS becos the late Hagin taught that it is possible for a Spirit-filled believer to lose his salvation. I read that in his controversial book, "I Believe In Visions".

And i think many WOFers may find it is 'hard' to say he's wrong becos he says it was what Jesus showed him in a vision.

BTW what do the Copelands believe?

Hi Andrew!

I was thinking about asking you if you had read Bro. Hagins' book you mentioned or not. I was listening to Pastor Prince today on his tape "Right Believing produces Right Living" where he was talking about the scripture that Bro. Hagin used, that he said Jesus told him about! Hmmm, I would say God is at work on something here......do you know if your Pastor P. has read that and what his thoughts on it were?

'Course, I also was thinking about the other part Pastor P. was preaching on about Paul and going back to Jerusalem too, because the first time I had heard him preach that, I had just recently listened to a teaching by Keith Moore on the same thing, in his "Being Spirit Led" tape series, and he talked about it being something else entirely! LOL!

Because I know that your Pastor has such an awesome revelation of grace, among other things, that some of the other teachers haven't rec'd yet, I am not going to get bent out of shape over either thing, because, #1 I ain't planning on gettin' unsaved, & #2 neither of the two diff views of that make any diff to my salvation! LOL! But I was curious to know if Pastor P. had read Bro. Hagin's book and what he thought about it. I mean, it was from a vision he had with Jesus, (& I know, guys......if it ain't in the Bible.......just be patient with me, okay? ) (that remark wasn't for you Andrew, just in cas you were wondering!).......and after all, we're talking Brother Hagin, here, ya know? So, I was wondering, if the scripture that was used could possibly have more than one interpetation? As far as what Kenneth C. believes, got me! I don't know if I have ever heard him teach on that and I don't know if I have it on any of the tapes of his I haven't listened to yet......someone else's tapes have gotten in the way!!!!! (By the way, my 2 boxes came today!!!!! Yippppeeeee! Fresh Manna from Heaven! Thank you Jesus!!!!!! Maybe that will keep the "Duckies" feed for a while! LOL!) Anyway, my guess would be, that Kenneth would be in line with what Bro. Hagin and or Oral Roberts taught on that subject. If I ever find out, I'll let you know!

Much Grace & Peace to you!

lovesblessing

PS. I got my mag from Bro. Jerry today, and quess what is now back in print?

 

[godson777]

I still stand by the scriptures that I quoted in my previous post. They clearly state that we are able to neglect our salvation.

Hebrews 2:1-4 NKJV says: Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

Also, what verses are you talking about the k. hagin interpretted one way and that other people interpretted a different way?

Thanks!

 

[Kebisoni]

Can anyone explain to me the Parable of the Sower (matthew 13) in relation to OSAS? It would seem to me that the seed can be sown (salvation/belief in Christ) and yet still wither and die or be choked up by things of this world....or have I got that wrong?

 

[godson777]

Can anyone explain to me the Parable of the Sower (matthew 13) in relation to OSAS? It would seem to me that the seed can be sown (salvation/belief in Christ) and yet still wither and die or be choked up by things of this world....or have I got that wrong?

True! I never realised it, but the parable of the sower is further proof of Once Saved Not Always Saved.

It suggests that people can be saved but for a number of different reasons end up falling away.