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any other Calvinist-Charismatic's here? (need advice, prayers... long)

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OnederWoman

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Some of you may remember me... I posted before under 'IamThatHero' (but I forgot my password, so I had to make a new screen name).

I asked before about if there were any churches out there that were both calvinist and charismatic... and I got some great replies. We even saw one we're interested in... Sovereign Grace... but, there are none near us.

We moved here (to NW AR) about 10 months ago. We've visited so many churches we've lost count. We stayed at a Messianic church for about 3 months. It was a great experiance and we are still in contact with them, but it's in another town and the drive is just longer than we want to make (plus nobody from the church lives up here, so there's no one to fellowship with outside church without having to travel). Now we're at an Assemblies of God church. We've been there about 3-4 months. They are new to the area, having started the church in April. Aside from the Armenianism, which we can live with most of the time... they are so focused on "growing the church" and "getting the numbers in" that we are going crazy. Not that we aren't for people coming to church or people coming to God to begin with... but we're feeling they are more about quantity than quality here. And the worship there... we don't feel like we've really worshiped in a corporate sense in such a long time. And their style of music drives us crazy... it's like lounge style christian choruses. And the pastor team (which is a father/son team) is fine and all... but they and their wives, well, we get the feeling they are nice and kind to us and even others because they "have" to be and because they want to get the "numbers". We have made a couple of friends though, otherwise it may have been easier to move on. I suppose even if we do start looking for another church again it's not like we have to cease forming the friendships that we've started. It's just easier to establish real meaningful relationships with people you go to church with and see at least once or twice a week regardless of whether you have time to outside that. And it's just that we've pretty much visited all the local churches that would be potentially what we'd be looking for. Where we're at used to be two very small country towns, but they are now merging and becoming a fairly decent sized small city. Churches here are generally small country type (several very pentacostalish type churches) and a few larger ones representing the major denominations.

We have thought about the possibility of starting a home Bible Study group with the hopes that Sovereign Grace would decide to plant a church here in a year or two. (that's what happened to one they just started in N.C. they had an established Bible study group of like minded people who really wanted a church like Sovereign Grace... and they finally got theirs). It sounds like a good idea to me... but my husband is feeling very unsure of his ability to get something like that going and keep it going. He's concerned with being able to keep it going when he travels several times a year for work. I told him it's not like someone else couldn't host the study in their home when he has to be gone... and it's not like others can't share the responcibility of leading the study... or we can simply take a Wednesday off when he's gone if we have to. Also he's not sure of himself in other ways. He tends to be a debator... no really meaning to be, it's just how he is naturally. There are few people he agrees with and he's afraid of people not being able to handle how he is. I don't think he's so bad... he's just very passionate about his faith and he doesn't like to compromise (another reason he has a problem being where we are).

I'm really not sure what we should do or when we should do it. And whatever it is we should do I'm not sure how to be encouraging to my husband at times when he's reluctant to do something.

I don't know. Any thoughts?
 

OnederWoman

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didaskalos said:
Interesting...
Why do you call yourself Charismatic?
Because we believe the spiritual gifts are for today/ we are not ceasationist.

We just aren't Armenian... and we're not in to all the "name-it-claim-it" and "word of faith" stuff.

Maybe I should change it to Spirit-filled Calvinist?
 
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Fiskare

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As I understood it, the Calvinist doctrines of the means of grace and sanctification are completely at odds with the charismatic movement's methods and claims. I would have suggested you drop the "Calvinist" label before you drop the Charismatic label, but so be it- it's your buzz, and I pray God leads you in your walk.

Anyway, I found this link from a Calvinist who is a char-o as well, and he labels it "Experiential Calvinism". Even though I think is the worst exegesis of the relevant passages I have ever read, easily, nevertheless, here it is. Perhaps you could drop him a line and ask for his advice? Perhaps he's been in your boots before, or vice versa.

All the best and I pray that as God solves the situation according to His will for you, you will be assured of His hand in your lives.
 
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OnederWoman

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Yes, we are aware that most often if a person is charismatic that they tend to lean towards the armenian side... but I just don't see that view backed up like I see Calvinism supported in the Bible. We just aren't your average charismatics. like I said, we don't buy into the name it claim it stuff and generally avoid anything that has to do with TBN (especially Benny). It's just that unlike most reformest we don't think that the Holy Spirit stopped moving after the 1st century.
 
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Ken

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I should have given you a bit more info... sorry about that... you can read a short biographical sermon on Jones from John Piper... I suggested Jones to you because he is strongly reformed, yet had teachings that many Calvinists considered a bit too charismatic.... anyway, see http://www.desiringgod.org/library/biographies/91lloyd_jones.html

also, oddly enough, Jones was a Calvinistic Methodist, in the line of George Whitefield... see
http://www.thebaptistpage.com/Nquite/NQ_portraits/jones.html for more on this....

Jones has many many excellent books, just do a search for his name on Amazon or something....

blessings
 
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OnederWoman

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Ken... thanks so much for all the info.

Have you ever noticed that Armenians always seem to have their sermons and bible lessons full of calvinistic type scriptures... they read them aloud and it will seem they agree, but then when questioned they are so anti-calvin. It's weird.

I know from reading here that you are of the reformed pursuasion (as are we I guess, other than we haven't ever attended a reformed church {Southern Baptist would be the closest, but dh says the SB's are too Armenian for him these days). I was just wondering what your take is on things like being "spirit-filled", "speaking in tongues", etc. As I've said, we are charismatic.... but I could also say we are the least charismatic of charismatics.
 
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Ken

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I agree... I have heard it called "calvinaphobia" LOL!!!

Yes, I am Reformed, Reformed Baptist....

Good news for the Southern Baptists!! There is a big push to return to their Calvinistic heritage. See The Founders page for more on this. http://www.founders.org/

My take on the gifts... I used to attend charismatic churches when I was very young in the faith, and still dearly love people in those bodies of Christians. Then I became a total cessationist. But then.... (LOL!!!) I read an excellent commentary on 1 Cor. chapters 12-14 by D.A. Carson (Showing the Spirit) which convinced me that the cessationist arguments, particularly those referencing 1 Cor. 13, are just not sound.... so I would say that I am cautiously open....

blessings!
 
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OnederWoman

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lol cautiously open... that would kinda discribe us too... as I look back over the past 11 years (sonce I was saved) I can look back at my first charismatic experiances and I can see which moments were really God and which were more fluff (human emotion mostly and very little devine inspiration). But those few (not all that few really) times where I KNOW it was God speaking through a person to me personally... because of those I am not a cessationist. We are very picky on the tongues thing. For us it's for private prayer (or during prayer it the volume is kept at a private level), if the rare happens and there is a tongue given to the body then there'd better be an interpretation immediately or it's out of order. We've walked out of churches with being there less than 15 minutes because they would gather to pray for a person and everyone would be practially yelling, many yelling in tongues... and that's just not of God, not orderly at all. Do you know anything about the "Sovereign Grace' people? They're supposed to be a group of Calvinist Charismatics (and not overly charismatic).
 
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ReformedCharismatic

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Here's what I posted recently on another thread...
just in case you're still checking in on this...I pray this helps


As a "Charismatic Calvinist" myself, I'll give you the whole run-down...
1. Yes, we exist...
2. There are plenty of us...
3. The movement is growing quickly, esp. as a result of books by D.A. Carson & Wayne Grudem which give cessationalist arguements such a mad thrashing...(see "Showing the Spirit" by Carson, and "The Gift of Prophecy" by Grudem, and maybe even "Convergence" by Sam Storms)

There are 3 "Charismatic Calvinist" denominations/association that I know of:

Sovereign Grace Ministries (solidly reformed and charismatic)

New Frontiers International (some of their churches haven't yet fully embrace the "reformed" aspect of the denomination - a later development)

Grace Churches International (variety in their churches - some more reformed - some more charismatic)

Association of Charismatic Reformed Churches (an association of independant Reformed Charismatic churches - leaning towards the "Reformed" side)

Also, as was already mentioned, there are a number of reformed-charismatic churches within the EPC, which that denomination allows for, and - suprisingly to some - in the Vineyeard Association of Churches...


The following list are authors that would consider themselves both Reformed/Calvinist and would identify themselves in one way or another with the Pentacostal, Charismatic, or Third Wave movments as it relates to the modern day work of the Holy Spirit. Please add more names if you know them...

A few "out" calvinist charismatics are:

C. Samuel "Sam" Storms
Wayne Grudem
C. J. Mahaney
Michael Youssef
Joshua Harris
Terry Virgo
J. Rodman Williams
Zeb Bradford Long
Rich Nathan (though he doesn't like labels)
R.T. Kendall (calls himself a 4 1/2 point calvinist)
Ian Stackhouse
Martyn Lloyd-Jones (deceased)


probably wouldn't call themselves "charismatic" but influencial in the movement:

John Knox (long deceased) - non-cessationalist calvinist
D.A. Carson - non-cessational calvinist, though critical of charismatic movement
John Piper - non-cessationalist calvinist
Jonathan Edwards (long deceased) - cessationalist calvinist, but very influencial on the movement
J. I. Packer - non-cessationalist calvinist, friendly to the movement
John R. W. Stott - friendly to, but critical of, the movement
R. C. Sproul - hard to figure out where he stands, but definitely friendly to, yet critical of, the movement
James K. A. Smith - "reformed" in the broader sense, and a charismatic, yet writings currently focus primarily around the philisophical/theological movement known as "Radical Orthodoxy" (another interest of my own)



Lastly...a few articles I've written on the subject, in case you're still interested...

How to eat your Cake (the best of both worlds) by Shannon Lewis


An old adage goes, "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Old adages are stupid. I eat my cake. I know it may sound radical to some, but it's true. I want the best of both worlds - the depth of theology, rich history, and deep love for the Word that I have found in Evangelical and "Reformed" churches, and the passionate worship, and the openness to let God be God and do what He pleases, as I've found among my Charismatic brothers and sisters. I am a Charismatic Calvinist - an "Empowered Evangelical" - a "Word and Power" Christian. Call it what you will, but I'm out of the closet for good.

Sadly, the church has often divided along these lines: truth and Spirit - Word and power - mind and heart. In one corner we have the "frozen chosen" (or the "fundamentalists") and in the other the "holy rollers", and n'ere the two shall meet. A.W. Tozer once wrote, "Satan has hindered us all he could by raising conflicting opinions about the Spirit, by making Him a topic of hot and uncharitable debate between Christians. In the meanwhile, our hearts crave Him, and we hardly know what the craving means." This "uncharitable debate" has hindered us greatly - each side lacking the balance the other offers. The truth is, both extremes may be missing the call to full-orbed Biblical faith.

One hot day Jesus chose to talk with a Samaritan woman. While chatting, trying to derail Jesus from asking any more about her long line of ex-husbands and live-in boyfriends, she did what most any one of us would have done - she promptly changed the subject, "Our ancestors worshipped God at this mountain, but you Jews insist that Jerusalem is the only place for worship, right?" (The Message) Jesus' response, recorded in John 4:21-24, is very relevant for us today;
"Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father... the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth..." (ESV)
On "this mountain" - Mt. Garasat - the Samaritans had built their own temple. The worship there was ecstatic, passionate, and spirited, but lacking the Word. Samaritans only accepted the first 5 books of the Bible, and, as often happens when we don't know God's truth, other beliefs had leaked in to fill the gaps. As full of the Spirit as their worship may have seemed, they lacked the fullness of what God desires for His worshippers - they lacked a solid foundation in the Truth. In Jerusalem, however, many Jews had the entire Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy) set to memory. Tradition, the weight of history, and the Word of God was in their court, yet many there were whitewashed tombs. On the outside they may have seemed obedient to God, but inside they were spiritually dead and their hearts were far from Him. Bound by legalism and doctrinal bickering rather than sincere, heartfelt worship of God, those in Jerusalem were no better off -only more culturally accepted. Jesus' answer however was neither Mt. Garasat nor Jerusalem, for either by itself is lacking. We need the Spirit AND the Truth. Traditional Evangelicals and Charismatics need one another, and both are necessary in the Emergent church if it is to faithfully be the body of Christ.

Doug Banister, author and former pastor of Fellowship Church Evangelical Free in Knoxville, sees this same troubling tendency present today;
"It's not hard to see how the church is enslaved by the power of an 'either-or' approach. One way to view the history of Christianity is to see the body of Christ swinging from one extreme to the other, rarely finding the middle way."
Yet R.T. Kendall, author and former pastor of Westminster Chapel in London, believes that Jesus has a contemporary message for us regarding this; "I have not come to take sides; I have come to take over."

So, how should we begin to step aside, and let Jesus do his thing? We can start with our language - the words we use to describe ourselves, and more importantly, those who aren't "us". For instance, we could use the words "reformed" and "Spirit-filled" less in our everyday vocabulary. Unless, of course, we're speaking of someone who has made an incredible turn-around while in prison, the word "reformed" sounds as though we have somehow rediscovered the fullness of the faith once delivered - standing as the sole guardians of Biblical truth - and, worst of all, that we're the standard for which all Christians should strive. Maybe "Semper Reformanda", or "always reforming" could be the new slogan for those who call Calvin and Luther their spiritual grandfathers as has already caught on in some circles. I mean, we're not there yet - are we?
And, though it may sound like an synonym for "demon possession" to some, we could still use the term "Spirit-filled", but please - only in reference to someone who outstandingly displays the Spirit's fruit (see Galatians 5) rather than to exalt some ministry or individual who manifests our pet miraculous gift. Seriously, how we choose to speak about one another includes or excludes, whether or not we intend to do so.

Secondly, just as Paul warned the Thessalonians, "Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies", I do the same. Evangelicals, do not quench the Spirit - do not despise ANY spiritual gift, in spite of how mis-used and misunderstood it may seem within the church. Gifts operate even in the midsts of fleshly, immature Christians - just look at the Corinthian church. However, the gifts are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).
Similarly, with Paul I say to you Charismatics, "Do all speak in tongues?" (1 Cor. 12:30). The obvious answer that Paul was seeking is, "No". When we expect every Christian to walk in an outstanding, miraculous gift, we too, just like the Evangelicals are despising a number of other, less fascinating, but no less important gifts.

Lastly, let us walk in love. Use gifts in love - teach in love - do "church" in love. "Love covers a multitude of sins," (1 Peter 4:8, ESV) and love leaves a lot of room for others to grow - even when we may disagree with them on some points - even when they may make us uncomfortable. For love, I can be uncomfortable.

God-willing, and I believe He is, there is room enough for both of me - I mean, all of us - in the emerging church. By the way, I'm loving my cake.
 
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Athanasian Creed

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OnederWoman said:
...Have you ever noticed that Armenians always seem to have their sermons and bible lessons full of calvinistic type scriptures... they read them aloud and it will seem they agree, but then when questioned they are so anti-calvin. It's weird...

Funny, i notice alot of that when i read Calvinistic sermons too. They're often called "leaky-Calvinists". A good example of one would be Spurgeon ("Lord bring in the elect, and then elect some more!!") although he is not alone. ;)

Most Calvinists i've read seem to fall towards one extreme or the other - some towards Arminianism and others towards "hyper-Calvinism" (which, BTW, is an oxymoronic term - hypers are the REAL Calvinists);)


Ray :wave:
 
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