The Liturgist

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Lately I have become fascinated with this denomination, in which Ronald Reagan grew up, interestingly; while I myself prefer infant baptism, I find myself fascinated by what seems to have been an ecumenical attitude on the part of Stone and Campbell before ecumenism was a thing, and also the unique historic approach of these churches to the Eucharist, with Lay Elders saying certain Eucharistic prayers rather than the ordained minister.

I am also interested if there are any members of traditionalist churches that broke away from the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.
 

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Not from strictly US DoC, I'm from Australian Church of Christ, which is from the same Stone/Campbell movement in origin. Church of Christ was the preferred name in more British influenced countries. (Along with the more conservative US parts)
Elders are the central authority in the church, whilst we had a minister, effectively he was an invited trained elder. Churches could and did just run with elders alone. The US DoC has a formal hierarchy above the local church, in Australia there are conferences but they are just administrative rather then pastoral or heirachical.
Eucharist was weekly and the central part of the service, we take priesthood of all believers seriously, so any believer could do readings or lead communion if approved by the elders.
Christian unity was at the heart of our way, I owe no name but Christ, I was baptised into Christ not to belong to a sect or schism.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not from strictly US DoC, I'm from Australian Church of Christ, which is from the same Stone/Campbell movement in origin. Church of Christ was the preferred name in more British influenced countries. (Along with the more conservative US parts)
Elders are the central authority in the church, whilst we had a minister, effectively he was an invited trained elder. Churches could and did just run with elders alone. The US DoC has a formal hierarchy above the local church, in Australia there are conferences but they are just administrative rather then pastoral or heirachical.
Eucharist was weekly and the central part of the service, we take priesthood of all believers seriously, so any believer could do readings or lead communion if approved by the elders.
Christian unity was at the heart of our way, I owe no name but Christ, I was baptised into Christ not to belong to a sect or schism.

That is really interesting. They are Trinitarian I assume, despite the non-creedal nature? Also is there acceptance of baptisms performed on infants, where someone wishes to join but not to be rebaptized? And are baptisms made using the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19
 
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That is really interesting. They are Trinitarian I assume, despite the non-creedal nature? Also is there acceptance of baptisms performed on infants, where someone wishes to join but not to be rebaptized? And are baptisms made using the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19

I was briefly part of a Disciples church in southern Illinois, and studied their theology and history in seminary. It's somewhat difficult to answer some of these questions due to their history. You'll probably have more questions than answers when I'm done.

The Disciples were the original group that stemmed from the Stone/Campbell movement, with a view of believer's baptism that approached baptismal regeneration. Stone and Campbell indeed sought ecumenical unity, but on their terms only (mainly rejection of infant baptism and adherence to their particular means of interpreting scripture). After the Civil War, what is known in the US as Church of Christ split off over a difference of opinion on instrumental music in worship. The DoC had no problem; the Church of Christ's hardline adherence to the regulative principle led them to reject any musical instruments in worship.

They are trinitarian in belief and practice. However, you will find some hesitancy among them about using the actual word "Trinity", as Barton Stone refused to use the term as it was not found in Scripture. They do baptize with the Trinitarian formula.

As for acceptance of infant baptism, it's complicated. Technically, their doctrine rejects it, but there's a bit of a catch. As the years progressed, especially as you get into the 20th century, their ministers were strongly influenced by liberal German theology. While the Churches of Christ and independent Christian Churches (another split after WW2, this one over liberalism) moved to a more exclusive stance, the Disciples leaned strongly into ecumenism. Coming into the 1960s, their desire to be more inclusive led them to become an actual denomination with a centralized hierarchy. As Disciples' membership shrank, they sought out partnerships with other mainstream denominations. They ended up in what they call a "covenant partnership" with the United Church of Christ (not to be confused with the acapella gang earlier in the post). In practice, it's almost a merger in everything but name, with the majority of UCC and DoC ministers being able to serve either denomination.

Here's where things get confused. The United Church of Christ, with their German Reformed and Congregationalist roots, practice infant baptism almost exclusively. The Disciples are credobaptists. So when a family makes the jump from a UCC congregation to a DoC congregation, the question is raised "well, Junior was baptized at the UCC when he was a baby. Does he have to be immersed now?". The solution is generally for the minister to shrug and say "whatever..."
 
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The Liturgist

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I was briefly part of a Disciples church in southern Illinois, and studied their theology and history in seminary. It's somewhat difficult to answer some of these questions due to their history. You'll probably have more questions than answers when I'm done.

The Disciples were the original group that stemmed from the Stone/Campbell movement, with a view of believer's baptism that approached baptismal regeneration. Stone and Campbell indeed sought ecumenical unity, but on their terms only (mainly rejection of infant baptism and adherence to their particular means of interpreting scripture). After the Civil War, what is known in the US as Church of Christ split off over a difference of opinion on instrumental music in worship. The DoC had no problem; the Church of Christ's hardline adherence to the regulative principle led them to reject any musical instruments in worship.

They are trinitarian in belief and practice. However, you will find some hesitancy among them about using the actual word "Trinity", as Barton Stone refused to use the term as it was not found in Scripture. They do baptize with the Trinitarian formula.

As for acceptance of infant baptism, it's complicated. Technically, their doctrine rejects it, but there's a bit of a catch. As the years progressed, especially as you get into the 20th century, their ministers were strongly influenced by liberal German theology. While the Churches of Christ and independent Christian Churches (another split after WW2, this one over liberalism) moved to a more exclusive stance, the Disciples leaned strongly into ecumenism. Coming into the 1960s, their desire to be more inclusive led them to become an actual denomination with a centralized hierarchy. As Disciples' membership shrank, they sought out partnerships with other mainstream denominations. They ended up in what they call a "covenant partnership" with the United Church of Christ (not to be confused with the acapella gang earlier in the post). In practice, it's almost a merger in everything but name, with the majority of UCC and DoC ministers being able to serve either denomination.

Here's where things get confused. The United Church of Christ, with their German Reformed and Congregationalist roots, practice infant baptism almost exclusively. The Disciples are credobaptists. So when a family makes the jump from a UCC congregation to a DoC congregation, the question is raised "well, Junior was baptized at the UCC when he was a baby. Does he have to be immersed now?". The solution is generally for the minister to shrug and say "whatever..."

Oh, this is coming back to me now from my UCC days... I remember now. I recall there was some major liberalism in the Disciples in the 60s and to their chagrin they had ordained Rev. Jim Jones, the evil communist cult leader, but later excommunicated him, however, I remember them as the denomination where Ronald Reagan and LBJ were baptized.

By the way, I was always told that the Christian Church was the more formal, liturgical branch, and the Disciples of Christ were less formal and more ex tempore. Was that the case in the 20th century after the Regulative principle of worship was discarded or is it completely backwards?

This is actually thrilling because just as I am injecting Orthodoxy into Congregationalism, I have an idea for a Creedal Christian Church / Disciples of Christ which would accept the idea of the centrality of the Eucharist and ecumenical reconciliation, and of having Elders (which is what Presbyter actually means) chosen by acclamation from the people of the parish as in the early Church consecrate the Eucharist, most of whom would be volunteers, with Superintendents visiting the parishes to ensure doctrinal correctness. The main difference with the Stone/Campbell movement would be that this new grouping, attached to my existing congregational ministry, would regard Stone and Campbell as correct in their emphasis on the Eucharist and desire for ecumenical reconciliation, but in error regarding their anti-creedalism and opposition to infant baptism.

This model would let me plant churches simply called Christian Churches that would embrace core principles of the Stone/Campbell movement that are correct, and which would resemble their worship, with a central Eucharist consecrated by the parish elders and not necessarily the preacher (the Methodist tradition of licensed preachers is also appealing to integrate here) which would avoid their errors, and teach Orthodox doctrines as one finds in Saints Athanasius, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Alexandria, Maximus the Confessor, Severus of Antioch, John of Damascus, John Cassian, Ambrose of Milan, Vincent of Lerins, the Cappadocians (Basil of Caesarea, his brother Gregory of Nyssa and his best friend Gregory Nazianzus) and Gregory Palamas.

Because that was really the main mistake poor Stone and Campbell made. Their heart was really in the right place, and they anticipated the Ecumenical Movement, but they did not know enough about the Early Church or the Eastern churches and the extreme freedom of belief therein. However their idea of a church intended to be anti-schismatic was beautiful and much better executed than the previous attempts at this, such as the Universalists, who were inherently Heterodox, and King’s Chapel in Boston, an Anglican parish which edited the Book of Common Prayer to delete all references to the Trinity, and still uses a version of this butchered* BCP, in order to be able to make welcome anyone regardless of their views on the Trinity; they unsurprisingly joined what is now the Unitarian Universalist Association.

*I say butchered because the doctrine of the Trinity was explicitly suppressed in the King’s Chapel BCP, unlike in the case of the Stone/Campbell movement which like many hesitates to use the word Trinity because it is not in the Bible, indeed, amusingly enough it was coined by Tertullian, a brilliant early theologian who is not venerated as a saint because his rigorism, his belief in the impossibility of the forgiveness of sins committed post-Baptism, led him to join the Montanist cult, whose founder Montanus claimed to be the Paraclete and was followed by three women who were supposedly prophetesses or oracles of some kind.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not from strictly US DoC, I'm from Australian Church of Christ, which is from the same Stone/Campbell movement in origin. Church of Christ was the preferred name in more British influenced countries. (Along with the more conservative US parts)
Elders are the central authority in the church, whilst we had a minister, effectively he was an invited trained elder. Churches could and did just run with elders alone. The US DoC has a formal hierarchy above the local church, in Australia there are conferences but they are just administrative rather then pastoral or heirachical.
Eucharist was weekly and the central part of the service, we take priesthood of all believers seriously, so any believer could do readings or lead communion if approved by the elders.
Christian unity was at the heart of our way, I owe no name but Christ, I was baptised into Christ not to belong to a sect or schism.

I really love the anti-Sectarian, anti-Schismatic attitude. It seems to me refreshing especially considering the United Methodist Church is about to tear itself in two with a schism simply because some North American bishops don’t want to follow the rules adopted at the 2018 General Conference, and the traditionalists are letting them get away with it rather than deposing them or offering them gracious dismissal to the United Church of Christ or the ELCA (the mainline, progressive Lutheran denomination which is very similar organizationally to the UMC) or the Metropolitan Community Church, which are collectively more suited to their theology.
 
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actionsub

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Oh, this is coming back to me now from my UCC days... I remember now. I recall there was some major liberalism in the Disciples in the 60s and to their chagrin they had ordained Rev. Jim Jones, the evil communist cult leader, but later excommunicated him, however, I remember them as the denomination where Ronald Reagan and LBJ were baptized.

By the way, I was always told that the Christian Church was the more formal, liturgical branch, and the Disciples of Christ were less formal and more ex tempore. Was that the case in the 20th century after the Regulative principle of worship was discarded or is it completely backwards?

This is actually thrilling because just as I am injecting Orthodoxy into Congregationalism, I have an idea for a Creedal Christian Church / Disciples of Christ which would accept the idea of the centrality of the Eucharist and ecumenical reconciliation, and of having Elders (which is what Presbyter actually means) chosen by acclamation from the people of the parish as in the early Church consecrate the Eucharist, most of whom would be volunteers, with Superintendents visiting the parishes to ensure doctrinal correctness. The main difference with the Stone/Campbell movement would be that this new grouping, attached to my existing congregational ministry, would regard Stone and Campbell as correct in their emphasis on the Eucharist and desire for ecumenical reconciliation, but in error regarding their anti-creedalism and opposition to infant baptism...

I took the liberty of bolding part of your response, as that was the main thing to which I wanted to respond. Truth is, the Disciples are a bit more liturgical and the Christian Churches more akin to revivalistic worship.
What caused the Church of Christ schism is that both sides at the time were committed to the regulative principle, but disagreed about what Scriptural silence on a topic entailed. The Disciples (and Christian Churches) took the stance that silence on the idea of musical instruments in the NT, along with the fact that OT worship definitely employed instruments, meant that one could infer that their use in worship was permissible. The Churches of Christ took the position that if it wasn't commanded then it must not be permitted.
As far as worship style goes, nowadays the Christian Churches' worship looks like every other evangelical church. Worship for the Disciples ranges from high-church to a middle-of-the-road style, much like the range you'd find in the American Baptist denomination. The main constant is that the Lord's Supper is generally somewhere in the middle of the worship service.
 
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I didn't pay attention to the Disciples denomination in the U.S., until I learned that Mullins attended a Whitewater Christian Church from the 3rd grade until high school graduation. I am impressed that such an influential songwriter, singer and thinker came out of this denomination. Tying this upbringing to Mullins' music, one gets a sense for why themes such as "faith without works is dead" and communion would play such a large part in his thinking. Catholics are correct that Mullins was interested in the RCC, but they are incorrect in assuming that his stance on works and communion were due to primarily to a Catholic influence.
 
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The Liturgist

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I took the liberty of bolding part of your response, as that was the main thing to which I wanted to respond. Truth is, the Disciples are a bit more liturgical and the Christian Churches more akin to revivalistic worship.
What caused the Church of Christ schism is that both sides at the time were committed to the regulative principle, but disagreed about what Scriptural silence on a topic entailed. The Disciples (and Christian Churches) took the stance that silence on the idea of musical instruments in the NT, along with the fact that OT worship definitely employed instruments, meant that one could infer that their use in worship was permissible. The Churches of Christ took the position that if it wasn't commanded then it must not be permitted.
As far as worship style goes, nowadays the Christian Churches' worship looks like every other evangelical church. Worship for the Disciples ranges from high-church to a middle-of-the-road style, much like the range you'd find in the American Baptist denomination. The main constant is that the Lord's Supper is generally somewhere in the middle of the worship service.

I had read literally the opposite, that it was the Christian Church half of the denomination which was more liturgical, and the Disciples less so, which is clearly in error; your post thus explains why I found only one Christian branded church in Kentucky that had what I would call low church mainline traditional worship (with an organ, etc).

Now from your post two questions emerge: firstly, do any substantial number of Churches of Christ still use the organ and traditional hymns as one would have found in any mainstream Protestant church into the 1970s or 80s, or has it gone dramatically over to the contemporary side, like for instance, what is apparently the case in the Christian and Missionary Alliance?

Secondly, do you know of any Disciples parishes you would call particularly high church?

What I would really like to find is a Stone/Campbell movement church that streams on YouTube, as high church as possible, by which at a minimum I mean organ music and the sort of things you would have associated with say, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church when Dr. James Kennedy, memory eternal, was still the pastor, if not vestments, use of liturgical colors, etc, that also preserves the tradition from their movement where the elders of that parish rather than the paid minister are the primary officiants of the Eucharist, if such a thing exists. One implication of the book Disciples at the Lord’s Table is that there has been a substantial increase in the role of the salaried minister in the Eucharist as a result of the ecumenical agreements Consensus on Christian Unity and Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry, but this has not been universal.
 
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I had read literally the opposite, that it was the Christian Church half of the denomination which was more liturgical, and the Disciples less so, which is clearly in error; your post thus explains why I found only one Christian branded church in Kentucky that had what I would call low church mainline traditional worship (with an organ, etc).

Now from your post two questions emerge: firstly, do any substantial number of Churches of Christ still use the organ and traditional hymns as one would have found in any mainstream Protestant church into the 1970s or 80s, or has it gone dramatically over to the contemporary side, like for instance, what is apparently the case in the Christian and Missionary Alliance?

Secondly, do you know of any Disciples parishes you would call particularly high church?

What I would really like to find is a Stone/Campbell movement church that streams on YouTube, as high church as possible, by which at a minimum I mean organ music and the sort of things you would have associated with say, Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church when Dr. James Kennedy, memory eternal, was still the pastor, if not vestments, use of liturgical colors, etc, that also preserves the tradition from their movement where the elders of that parish rather than the paid minister are the primary officiants of the Eucharist, if such a thing exists. One implication of the book Disciples at the Lord’s Table is that there has been a substantial increase in the role of the salaried minister in the Eucharist as a result of the ecumenical agreements Consensus on Christian Unity and Baptism, Eucharist and Ministry, but this has not been universal.


You can probably count the Churches of Christ that use the organ on one hand. The main hymnal they use is a mix of traditional hymns and the newer choruses.
The ones who might have an organ would be called in most case "Christian Churches" instead, though lately they're more likely to have a praise band and contemporary worship.
The Disciples churches are more likely to have traditional worship with a choir, etc., a modified liturgy, and an organ. The elders will still preside over the Eucharist; that's a non-negotiable. You may or may not find liturgical colors depending on the church. In urban areas, it's more likely. The small country churches that are still Disciples-affiliated have worship that would be more like a Baptist church.
 
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I really love the anti-Sectarian, anti-Schismatic attitude. It seems to me refreshing especially considering the United Methodist Church is about to tear itself in two with a schism simply because some North American bishops don’t want to follow the rules adopted at the 2018 General Conference, and the traditionalists are letting them get away with it rather than deposing them or offering them gracious dismissal to the United Church of Christ or the ELCA (the mainline, progressive Lutheran denomination which is very similar organizationally to the UMC) or the Metropolitan Community Church, which are collectively more suited to their theology.
The DoC accepted gay leaders in 2013, so any departures would have happened then.

As far as I know, in the DoC the denomination doesn't own church buildings, and the structure doesn't have the complexities of the UMC, so they would have avoided much of the conflict for organizational reasons. I don't think they or any other Protestant group has managed to hold together both sides on this issue.
 
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Lately I have become fascinated with this denomination, in which Ronald Reagan grew up, interestingly; while I myself prefer infant baptism, I find myself fascinated by what seems to have been an ecumenical attitude on the part of Stone and Campbell before ecumenism was a thing, and also the unique historic approach of these churches to the Eucharist, with Lay Elders saying certain Eucharistic prayers rather than the ordained minister.

I am also interested if there are any members of traditionalist churches that broke away from the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.

I was a member of the Christian Church/Instrumental in the past, and I also went to one of their bible colleges for a year.

To break this down in 'easy form,' there are today essentially three branches of the Campbellite movement in the U.S.

1) Disciples of Christ---this is the branch that is more or less liberalized in its theological outlook and expresses its worship in more traditional, formal ways.

2) Church of Christ (South/Non-instrumental)/Christian Church (North/Non-instrumental) --- this is the branch that is ultra conservative and hyper-fundamentalist. It eschews instruments in worship service and take a very rigid, literal view of the Bible. Due to the outcomes of U.S. history, this same branch flip-flops its specific name, depending on whether or not one resides in the North or the South of the U.S.

3) Church of Christ (North/Instrumental)/Christian Church (South/Instrumental)---this is the generally conservative, evangelical branch of this same movement, but they take the Bible less literally, are open to more scholarship, and permit instruments in worship. Like its counterpart above, this branch is strangely identified inversely, depending on whether one resides in the North or South of the U.S.
 
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Lately I have become fascinated with this denomination, in which Ronald Reagan grew up, interestingly; while I myself prefer infant baptism, I find myself fascinated by what seems to have been an ecumenical attitude on the part of Stone and Campbell before ecumenism was a thing, and also the unique historic approach of these churches to the Eucharist, with Lay Elders saying certain Eucharistic prayers rather than the ordained minister.

I am also interested if there are any members of traditionalist churches that broke away from the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.
Does this also include the Church of Christ which split from the DoC early on? They seem to have a similar structure, but are more conservative. No gays, women preachers etc.
 
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