Any insight would be appreciated!

[mesaboogier]

“When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

I’m going to start off by saying I want to think that I know what this passage means. The problem is that if it says what I think it is saying, then I am not sure what to do about it, or how to implement that into a gospel message. This is one of those many times that I wish I was back in Corinth, and Paul shows up, and I get to see in person what Paul means by “My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.”

I am not ashamed to say I’m a Fundacharismentalastic Christian, and I would prefer to not pass judgment on a passage that I am not comfortable with until I feel that the Holy Spirit has given me true revelation of what the passage means. Unfortunately that has not occurred with this passage (and a few others similar to it). So the Fundamental side and the Charismatic side of me try to rationalize this passage to fit into my nice pretty doctrinal package. (Which, by the way, God has unwrapped that package and strewn it’s contents everywhere because of the fact that so much of my theology was and is mostly “men’s wisdom” that has been passed on to me and although much of it may be truth, I can admit that I have blindly accepted some of it as truth, because it fit my puzzle. Anyways, that is a whole other subject.)

So here I am, proclaiming to all that I am unsettled by and unsure of this passage, but I am very interested in what it means to others. In my personal experience it seems that much of the American church growth comes by church transfers and then the occasional person who has been saved and regenerated into a new creature. Many American Christians (by no means all) have been raised in a Christian home, and have been taught about Christ since they were young. Could it be that there are many who attend church, and are hungry, but they are just receiving “men‘s wisdom“? I am honestly stumped on how to deliver the gospel because it seems most Americans should already know who Jesus Christ is, and I feel I really could use “a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.” Knowing the Romans road and leading someone into the believers prayer is wonderful and can work, but is that a demonstration of the Spirit’s power? Is recommending a book or a taped sermon series about God going to make a persons faith rest on God’s power alone? Obviously these things are valid, but it seems like Paul may be referring to something more than these things, and I am caught outside of my comfort zone.

So again, the Fundamentalist in me and the Charismatic part of me battle it out, rationalizing each other away. I think the part of me that would love to see God do something supernatural can see the benefit of being able to give that version of “a demonstration of the Spirit’s power” to non-believers, but what in the world is Paul talking about? Then the fundamentalist side of me says that only a wicked generation looks for a sign, so I am stumped. I have had a few supernatural experiences, and each one turned my world upside down and revealed more of God‘s power to me (which I would be happy to share because God is glorified in them), and I have also heard of and read about many supernatural happenings in the mission field which glorify Christ and result in many believers. The thing is, I am quick to discount the possibility of these things, and I find it hard to believe that these things could happen here today.

Therefore, I am requesting insight into this passage. I am interested in what this means to my friends and fellow believers. I do hope that in your responses, you will address the demonstration of the Spirit’s power part because that is the part that stumps me the most. I do not want to be closed minded towards anyone’s view on this, mainly because mine is far from being solidified. Any help and prayer would be appreciated.

 

[stormdancer0]

“When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.” (1 Cor. 2:1-5)

I don't see a conflict. Paul is telling the Corinthians that it was not his own ability or charisma that spoke to their hearts, but God's voice. He purposely did not use his learning as a Pharisee; nor did he use his human reasoning. He was not over-confident; was in fact afraid. The Spirit's power was to "get their attention," to tell the Corinthians, "Hey, this man is privy to the voice of God." The miracles were only proof of the truth of Paul's words. But it's the words that triggered faith. Otherwise, the miracles wouldn't have happened.

Miracles solidify faith; they don't create it. Even in Jesus' time, the miracles did not convince anyone. It was the words of Christ. Even Christ could do no miracles where there was no faith, no belief, but once they heard His words, and received a measure of faith by them, He could heal, and save.

A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign. But the signs themselves are not evil. They are to be used as proof of the truth. If you have people who say, "Unless you heal me, I won't believe," THAT'S the wickedness of man. If they are healed, and believe because of the healing, that's not. There had to be some semblance of faith there for the healing to take hold.

I think I said all that right!!

 

[mesaboogier]

I tend to agree with you Stormdancer, and I thank you for your response. My question to you would be, are we lacking that power of the Spirit today and if not then do we lead people to Jesus by man's wisdom alone? It seems to me that much of the power of the gospel is lost today, at least I don't know how to find it or use it correctly. Do I just need faith to show the power of the Spirit, because I know alot of people who need to see it. Have you ever seen that done or done that yourself? I would love to have the confidence of Paul to walk in and say Christ died for you and give non-believers an example of the Spirit's power to make Him real to them. But I'm left to my lack of experience and now I'm stuck with the fact that I haven't seen it done with my own eyes, so I have a hard time accepting it... but I am not denying it.

 

[timusmc]

If you start looking at the word and are trying to put it in a different form to understand than you change it from Gods word to Mans word. It took one man to want self-independence to ruin what good wanted for us. God is love complete,unfailing and non-manipulating. IT SIMPLY IS WHAT IT IS. Total faith in God is our hardest task because we try to make things work for us or make them conform to our understanding and confine it to fit OUR rules.

How can you make God work for you, you cant God has no limitations and does not conform to us. We must come to trust in God completely.

With that in mind Paul is trying to tell them that it is not by him that miracles happen but by his complete trust in God to work through him not of him.

 

[stormdancer0]

I tend to agree with you Stormdancer, and I thank you for your response. My question to you would be, are we lacking that power of the Spirit today and if not then do we lead people to Jesus by man's wisdom alone? It seems to me that much of the power of the gospel is lost today, at least I don't know how to find it or use it correctly. Do I just need faith to show the power of the Spirit, because I know alot of people who need to see it. Have you ever seen that done or done that yourself? I would love to have the confidence of Paul to walk in and say Christ died for you and give non-believers an example of the Spirit's power to make Him real to them. But I'm left to my lack of experience and now I'm stuck with the fact that I haven't seen it done with my own eyes, so I have a hard time accepting it... but I am not denying it.

AH, there's your problem. You will not see it until you believe it. The power of God has been watered down by the fear of man. We are so afraid of what others will think that we do not step out in faith when we are called to. We have also become so dependent on our own knowledge that anything unexplainable is automatically rejected. Faith healings are rejected, even laughed at, by the so-called "intelligent" scientists. Whenever God has called me out, I have tried to obey, even when I am very uncomfortable. As it turns out, those are the times that God has moved more strongly.

Just a small example of faith causing God to move. My best friend and church mama, Linda, had minor surgery 18 months ago. The next morning, her daughter checked in on her and she was dead - no heartbeat, no breathing. They did CPR and called 911. The EMS got her heart beating again, but the hospital told them that she'd been without oxygen at least ten minutes, and EEG showed no brain wave activity. MRI's showed the same thing - no brain activity except in the brainstem that controls the heartbeat. But her husband spoke in the Spirit, saying that she would not die from this.

Fast forward a week. She's still in a coma, still "brain-dead." I go to church in tears. I just can't stand it any more. My pastor, one of the most compassionate, sympathetic people I know, took one look at me and said, "What's wrong with you, girl? I thought you trusted God." Ticked me off big time.

But on the way to the hospital, I reconsidered. He was right. I right there gave her to God. A peace came over me, and I let her go. If God wanted Linda, it would in no way affect my faith. But I trust that if God said He'd heal her, He would. I thanked Him for her healing. I knew, deep in my heart, that she would live.

When I got to the hospital, she was awake, the doctors were confused, and my faith was solidified like granite. But my belief had to come first.

I have seen more miracles in the past three years (since I received the Holy Spirit and joined a Spirit-filled church) than I every believed existed before. I've seen cancer healed, financial problems resolved, heart conditions completely reversed in a couple of hours - it amazes me. God even chose to ask me to lay hands on a woman with aggressive terminal stomach cancer, and pray for her. He healed her. Instantly. The next day, all the doctor could find was scar tissue caused by the removal of a tumor - one that was inoperable.

The miracles are there - the power is available. Our church sees it, because we don't particularly give a crud what others think - if God tells us to stand on our heads and whistle "Dixie" backwards, we'll give it our best shot.

I love being His!!

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

. . .
So here I am, proclaiming to all that I am unsettled by and unsure of this passage, but I am very interested in what it means to others. . . .

Paul knew that God doesn't ask anyone to believe something before he demonstrates why they should.

People that have never experienced the signs and wonders will only believe in the words-only version of God . .. sure they may believe that miracles can happen but they don't expect them.

Joh:4:48: Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
- this is a statement of fact, not a rebuke, that's why he said we shouldn't believe him (or anyone claiming to represent him) if they don't have the signs-following ministry

Joh:10:37: If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Joh:14:12: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

I sincerely nominally believed "the gospel" until I met people that had actually received what all Jesus disciples received in Acts 2, then I saw what faith in God really is!
Expecting God to do all that he says, things that no man could do.
Not only did these people have his signs-foillowing (tongues, healing, prophecy), they had a confidence (faith) and contentment (joy & love) I couldn't attain to.

There was nothing left for me that to shed all my religious ideas and call on God whole-heartedly, without doubting.

When I did this I received the same.

This is "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3, 19-21)

 

[childofGod31]

Paul was saying that when he came to preach, he felt scared and unprepared. He didn't have a beautiful and well laid out sermon to give to people. Maybe he wasn't the best speaker... But God works in weakness best. God's Spirit took over and delivered the sermon in power apart from Paul's inability.

There are good preachers and they eloquently preach. But the question is: are they preaching the true Word of God, or a Gospel which was washed down by traditional perceptions. Are they praying for their sermon all week long to make sure that it would be through God's Spirit that they would preach and not on their own...

The problem is that people, instead of studying the Word for themselves, tend to accept the leader's explanations for things, for generations. And the Gospel becomes - men's beliefs about God, but not the Word of God itself.

Paul did not live for himself, he lived completely for God. Therefore, God's Spirit was free to act in him as well as He pleased.
If you want to be filled with the Spirit, I would think you would need to surrender your life to God and then He'll take over your heart and He will start speaking through you. You would need to draw closer to God, to get to know God. Once you do that, you will want His will to become yours. And then you and God will act in unison, His Spirit working through you. And this is what God wants from you. A total submission to His Spirit.

Bible 101 • View topic - How to Draw Close to God/How to feel God's Love

 

[mesaboogier]

These are all great responses and I thank you all for taking the time to give me your insight. I love the tone of your discussions and I encourage others to opine in this non-threatening environment we have here in the "Deeper Fellowship" board. Your words are all encouraging to me and I love the fellowship we share in Christ!

 

[Jeffz]

Dear Brother for myself I have sought this out for myself not only through the Word of God but by how it effects men of God. The power Paul is speaking of is not miracles ie turning broken arms into mend ones, but I believe it is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. One example that comes to mind is with D.L. Moody and his testimony of the change that God wrought in him. Before the transforming power of the Holy Spirit, while in England upon a street, he says that his words in a meeting that evening were not any different than before, but those same sermons had power to penetrate the hearts of men not just thier minds. The power of God was at work not D. L. Moody's human power or pursuassion. For myself the power of God came upon me and has been causing a real... transformation and when I share my testimony I see the power of God opening up eyes of those that I have shared with. It is totally amazing for me to see this for I am just speaking what God has done for this wretched man and how much I love the messiah and all that He is doing in my life. Not just mere words any longer but the power of the holy spirit guiding the words I speak by faith. My life is a miracle when I see and know what I once was and what I now am. I have not obtained the 'High mark" yet but I press on daily to walk with him. It is the transforming power of the gift of almighty God, His holy Spirit within that changes not mere words.

 

[praisehimalleluia]

Something I found on the net by John Piper, that I would like to share with you regarding that verse above.

The wisdom of men is destructive to faith because it regards the word of the cross as foolishness. But why does it? What is there about human wisdom which causes it to regard Christ crucified as folly? Paul gives us the answer, I think, in chapter one verses 26 and following: "Consider your call brothers: not many of you were wise according to the flesh (i.e., worldly standards), not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth; but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise ... " Now drop down to his purpose in verse 29: "so that no human being might boast in the presence of God." God has set himself against the wisdom of the world so that no one might boast before God. The clear implication is that at the root and core of what Paul calls the "wisdom of men" is pride.

So from all these verses then I suggest this definition of the "wisdom of the world": it is the use of the human mind to achieve and maintain a ground for boasting before God and man. Now it begins to become really clear why merely human wisdom regards the cross of Christ as foolishness. The death of Christ on the cross is such a radical indictment of the hideousness of our sinfulness that human wisdom has to mount all its biggest guns to destroy the cross lest it lose its ground for boasting.

When Jesus was at his weakest in the agony of the cross, God's power was at its strongest, lifting the infinite weight of sin and condemnation off the backs of all who would believe on him. Because Jesus died and bore the punishment of our sin, all the power of God, who created the universe, was loosed for the benefit of God's elect. As Paul said in Romans 8:32: "He who did not spare his own son but gave him up for us all, surely (by his infinite power) he will give us all good things with him."

But don't make a mistake here. Just as the wisdom of God is foolishness with man, so the power of God is viewed by men as weakness. God wills it that way: chapter one, verse 27: "God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong." The divine power in which our faith rests is not the power of a May Day in Red Square; it is not the power of big business or bloc voting; it is not the power of personal savvy and cool self-assertion. The power in which saving faith rests is the power of divine grace sustaining the humble, loving heart and radiating out through weakness. That is the inimitable power that we see in Christ - meekly, humbly, lovingly mounting the cross for our sin. The power of God's grace sustaining the humble, loving heart of Christ and radiating out through his weakness: this is the resting place of saving faith and this is the demonstration of the Spirit and power (2:4).

 

[nasa1]

That sounds like calvinist doctrine of demons. Jesus set free everyone. The elect are those chosen to bring the world to Christ. Jesus died for all, he rose for all. All are in Him.