Any historical proof for Jesus existence?

[HermanNeutics13]

Prove it.
Without citing the Bible as proof.

Did you watch the Hitchens video?

I have proven it several times already in this thread, people who were alive less than 100 years after him mention him even though they didn't believe in his deity. If you are going to throw out the gospels because they are in the Bible then you are letting your bias get in the way of an honest Historic perspective.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

Hitchen's argument on Socrates seems to be that it doesn't matter if he existed or not, which is really in effect avoiding the real issue. Why do so many historians accept that he in fact existed?

 

[Forest Wolf]

I have proven it several times already in this thread, people who were alive less than 100 years after him mention him even though they didn't believe in his deity. If you are going to throw out the gospels because they are in the Bible then you are letting your bias get in the way of an honest Historic perspective.

If you can only rely on the gospels then you are not providing an independent historic record of evidence for the existence of Jesus.
You can not use the Bible to prove a character in the Bible really did exist.

Of course he exists in the Bible. The question, as posed prior, is provide non-Biblical proof for Jesus existence.

 

[Forest Wolf]

Hitchen's argument on Socrates seems to be that it doesn't matter if he existed or not, which is really in effect avoiding the real issue. Why do so many historians accept that he in fact existed?

I can only presume to speak to what Christopher Hitchens said in that regard as we shall not know what he meant save for what is already on record prior to his passing.

If Socrates was a mythological figure then it really does not matter that the figure did not exist. What matters is whomever was the creator of the mythical character did create in the process a method of reasoning attributed to Socrates that is useful beyond the character himself.

As to Socratese and the prior proclamation pages back that there is more evidence for Jesus than he, that is debatable. Socratese did exist. As Xenophon the Athenian apology or defense of Socrates attests.

 

[HitchSlap]

There is more Historic evidence for Jesus than there is for Socrates, the only evidence of who Socrates was comes from Plato, and no one doubts Socrates existed.

But I doubt he was born a virgin and was a son of god and rose from the dead, as well as untold cadre of all manner of miracles.

 

[HitchSlap]

I have proven it several times already in this thread, people who were alive less than 100 years after him mention him even though they didn't believe in his deity. If you are going to throw out the gospels because they are in the Bible then you are letting your bias get in the way of an honest Historic perspective.

Yes, his name does seem to "pop" up early second century, especially in Paul's writings, which always refer to a "spiritual" Jesus where stories take place in the spiritual realm. Paul's version of "Christianity" could be considered "Jewish-lite," for all intents and purposes, as it was palatable for all those Jews who were tired of the crooked Sanhedrin and the Rabbinate, and for Gentiles, as it seemed to be definitely "unJewish" in it's origins.

 

[HitchSlap]

What do you consider contemporaneity's? Pliny was on generation removed. That is a lot closer than many other historical data that for characters that are accepted as actual Historic figures.

I would accept Roman records of crucifixion or court proceedings, Jewish records, archaeological evidence mentioning Mary, Joseph or Jesus, a record of Herod killing babies under two, evidence of Rome requiring people to return to their places of birth for census purposes, contemporary written records of Jesus' exploits, written words by Jesus himself, etc. (Just to name a few)

 

[HitchSlap]

There is more Historic evidence for Jesus than there is for Socrates, the only evidence of who Socrates was comes from Plato, and no one doubts Socrates existed.

Do you believe Socrates created the world, can read your thoughts, was born of a virgin, died on a cross as a blood sacrifice, rose from the dead, loves you more than anyone, lives in heaven and wants you there when you die?

 

[HermanNeutics13]

I would accept Roman records of crucifixion or court proceedings, Jewish records, archaeological evidence mentioning Mary, Joseph or Jesus, a record of Herod killing babies under two, evidence of Rome requiring people to return to their places of birth for census purposes, contemporary written records of Jesus' exploits, written words by Jesus himself, etc. (Just to name a few)

I have provided quite a few sources outside the Bible. Tacitus mentions Jesus being crucified by Pilate.

 

[HermanNeutics13]

Do you believe Socrates created the world, can read your thoughts, was born of a virgin, died on a cross as a blood sacrifice, rose from the dead, loves you more than anyone, lives in heaven and wants you there when you die?

This argument is about the historic Jesus not his deity.

 

[HitchSlap]

I have provided quite a few sources outside the Bible. Tacitus mentions Jesus being crucified by Pilate.

Mentioning "Christus" in passing while referring to the death of Christians eighty years later is neither contemporary nor compelling for someone who is credited with miraculous deeds and teachings.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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