Any creationists left?

[Knowledge3]

The early church used this as a powerful apologetic against pagan sun worship.

Do you have link to this document? Please?...

 

[Knowledge3]

Yes. No matter what you say to them, they will not see origins from a Biblical perspective until God changes their heart. For them, seeing is believing; but in reality, believing is seeing. Having faith before evidence is counter to their intellectual experience, and is what will keep them blind.I don’t follow how the source of light relates to evolution. Since God is TRUE and the source of all light (whether by his Word or an object like the sun) and macro-evolution is FALSE, there is no relationship between the two, and any attempt to make one is futile. I fail to see the need to fit the Biblical account of Creation into an evolutionary/scientific paradigm since they are opposing views to begin with. They cannot BOTH be true.

Yep. Agreed, this where I was getting at. I was even nudged to accept evolution into my philosophies and theologies but I declined. Evolution just doesn't quite stand up to Creationism.It never has and never will,but evolution in general is a part of science and we still have to examine it because God is science according John 1:1 in too many ways to list.

Do you think these verse is an analogy of we discuss as believers conversing with unbelievers?

Romans 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen

To convince someone who has a naturalistic view of origins, that anything in the account of creation is true (leaving out the supernatural), while at the same time trying to convince them that the supernatural exists, is a lost cause.

I can see you point. But discussing and telling them about Jesus is what I strive to do,because it is all I can do. I wouldn't consider it a completely lost cause. There are still lost sheep that need to be found.

 

[Knowledge3]

Very Interesting God created light before the sun.
In fact Revelation makes a point that there will be no sun in heaven as God (Father & Son) will be the light.

One Bible verse comes to mind about God as the Creator and source of light. Bible study pays off.

Daniel 2.21-22 He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. He reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what lies in darkness and light dwells with him.

Can any fellow creationists point me to Scripture where God equates Himself with light?

 

[theywhosowintears]

One Bible verse comes to mind about God as the Creator and source of light. Bible study pays off.

Daniel 2.21-22 He changes times and seasons; he sets up kings and deposes them. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the discerning. He reveals deep and hidden things; he knows what lies in darkness and light dwells with him.

Can any fellow creationists point me to Scripture where God equates Himself with light?

Isaiah 60:20
20 Your sun will never set again,
and your moon will wane no more;
the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of sorrow will end.

John 8
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Isaiah 42:6
"I, the LORD , have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

John 1:9*
The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world

2 Samuel 22:29
You are my lamp, O LORD ;
the LORD turns my darkness into light.

Ezra 9:8
"But now, for a brief moment, the LORD our God has been gracious in leaving us a remnant and giving us a firm place in his sanctuary, and so our God gives light to our eyes and a little relief in our bondage.

Nehemiah 9:12
By day You led them with a pillar of cloud, and by night with a pillar of fire to give them light on the way they were to take.

Job 9
7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
he seals off the light of the stars.
8 He alone stretches out the heavens
and treads on the waves of the sea.
9 He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion,
the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
10 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.

Psalm 4
6 Many are asking, "Who can show us any good?"
Let the light of your face shine upon us, O LORD .

Matthew 17:2
2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Revelation 8
12The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.

Revelation 21:23
The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

Revelation 22:5
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

 

[mhess13]

Do you have link to this document? Please?...

a couple of quicky links off the top of me head. enjoy
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-160.htm

http://www.creationism.org/articles/EarlyChurchLit6Days.htm

 

[Knowledge3]

To convince someone who has a naturalistic view of origins, that anything in the account of creation is true (leaving out the supernatural), while at the same time trying to convince them that the supernatural exists, is a lost cause.

True.

The debate continues................

 

[Knowledge3]

Isaiah 60:20
20 Your sun will never set again,
and your moon will wane no more;
the LORD will be your everlasting light,
and your days of sorrow will end.

John 8
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Isaiah 42:6
"I, the LORD , have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

John 1:9*
The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world

2 Samuel 22:29
You are my lamp, O LORD ;
the LORD turns my darkness into light.

Ezra 9:8
"But now, for a brief moment, the LORD our God has been gracious in leaving us a remnant and giving us a firm place in his sanctuary, and so our God gives light to our eyes and a little relief in our bondage.

Nehemiah 9:12
By day You led them with a pillar of cloud, and by night with a pillar of fire to give them light on the way they were to take.

Job 9
7 He speaks to the sun and it does not shine;
he seals off the light of the stars.
8 He alone stretches out the heavens
and treads on the waves of the sea.
9 He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion,
the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.
10 He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.

Psalm 4
6 Many are asking, "Who can show us any good?"
Let the light of your face shine upon us, O LORD .

Matthew 17:2
2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Revelation 8
12The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.

Revelation 21:23
The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

Revelation 22:5
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

Thanks guys.. I really appreciate your fellowship here in Christ. Who is forever to be praised..Amen

 

[Knowledge3]

a couple of quicky links off the top of me head. enjoy
http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-160.htm

http://www.creationism.org/articles/EarlyChurchLit6Days.htm

Thanks bro...Bookmarked.

 

[Knowledge3]

Yes. No matter what you say to them, they will not see origins from a Biblical perspective until God changes their heart.

I have definitely noticed that keyarch..

For them, seeing is believing; but in reality, believing is seeing. Having faith before evidence is counter to their intellectual experience, and is what will keep them blind.

I don’t follow how the source of light relates to evolution. Since God is TRUE and the source of all light (whether by his Word or an object like the sun) and macro-evolution is FALSE, there is no relationship between the two, and any attempt to make one is futile.

As do I.I will not drop one Scripture to accomodate a strange or foreign teaching from man.How is Macro-evolution false? I read a few stuff on it but haven't got there yet.

I fail to see the need to fit the Biblical account of Creation into an evolutionary/scientific paradigm since they are opposing views to begin with. They cannot BOTH be true.

To convince someone who has a naturalistic view of origins, that anything in the account of creation is true (leaving out the supernatural), while at the same time trying to convince them that the supernatural exists, is a lost cause.

Agreed. And what do you think is the source or principle behind this naturalistic view that leaves God out of His Creation?

 

[keyarch]

…..How is Macro-evolution false? I read a few stuff on it but haven't got there yet.

First of all, if you believe that scripture is the inspired Word of God you would have to trust that it is telling the truth regarding creation and that every original “kind” or species if you like was made fully formed, with all the DNA information to allow variation within those kinds. God does not tell us that He created the first one celled organism and then let evolution take its course, or that He guided evolution’s course over millions of years.

Now given that “faith”, I say how is macro-evolution true? And if someone says that it was common for one “kind” to evolve into another and it happened over great periods of time, then I have to ask the following questions:

1. Is this a theory based on a pre-supposition or a fact?

2. If it’s said to be a fact, then what scientific method is being employed?

3. Is the scientific method a totally accurate test that can be used to accurately gauge the subject or specimen in a totally blind study? Or, are there other assumptions being made that enter into the results, i.e. rock strata.

4. Is the supernatural component being considered, or is it assumed that everything had to come about naturally and therefore had to evolve.

5. If the mechanism for transition was so common to evolve all the thousands of species that we have today and those that have gone extinct, why don’t we see biology in transition today, and if nature can do it so easy, why can’t modern science do it today? All I see in science is manipulation of existing information within an organism. What I don’t see is science using inorganic materials to create life (which needs DNA), nor do I see them able to subject any organisms to conditions that would have been naturally available on earth to force new beneficial “information” into the DNA for replication that wasn’t already present. Sure, they can damage one component and then another existing one presents itself as a change, and maybe there can be a recombination of existing sequences to bring forth a new trait, but that can only go so far within that “kind” and not be passed on to other kinds if they can’t reproduce in the first place. Yet, how did we end up with so much “convergence” of similar traits that cross over to many different “kinds”?

6. Why do only the perfect and the strong of a species survive with out their transitional forms, and yet all the surrounding weaker types of species survive in their forms? For example, they say humans and apes came from the same ancestor, yet apes are still here. Why not any of the other varieties along the way?

I could go on, but this would get too long.

…And what do you think is the source or principle behind this naturalistic view that leaves God out of His Creation?

I think the Bible tells us why:

Rom 1:20-25 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

 

[Knowledge3]

First of all, if you believe that scripture is the inspired Word of God you would have to trust that it is telling the truth regarding creation and that every original “kind” or species if you like was made fully formed, with all the DNA information to allow variation within those kinds. God does not tell us that He created the first one celled organism and then let evolution take its course, or that He guided evolution’s course over millions of years.

Very true. I acknknowledge God as my Savior again for no reason other being compelled to. I need more blessings because I found VERY interesting book.

I am going to buy that book. For you, keyarch, I HIGHLY recommend that you buy theADVANCEMENT by Russ. L Bush. It explains the nebulous concept of modernists think by the information gained in the 20th century into the 21'st.

It adequately explains the evolutionistic principle is a double read for me even with reading abilities.I high recommend for any Christian philopsher for guidance in overall Faith in Christ in this age and time of advance information and knowledge..The book describes how evolutionist principles and thinking leaves God out thier equation of thier "wordly" knowledge and weak foundation of faith in ToE.


Now given that “faith”, I say how is macro-evolution true? And if someone says that it was common for one “kind” to evolve into another and it happened over great periods of time, then I have to ask the following questions:

I believe the according thier kinds God said in Genesis is the current evolutionist principle of "kinds" of specie or speciation evolving primarily in ToE to thier own discord and misguided conception(s).

1. Is this a theory based on a pre-supposition or a fact?

Some base it as fact. Some as pre-supposition.I based it on niether, I will not accept ToE into my belief system as an OEC.

2. If it’s said to be a fact, then what scientific method is being employed?

Thier scientific method is being employed by thier worldy scientific method. However I believe the Creator is theScientific method.

3. Is the scientific method a totally accurate test that can be used to accurately gauge the subject or specimen in a totally blind study? Or, are there other assumptions being made that enter into the results, i.e. rock strata.

No. The scientific method being employed is based on pure science. However OEC creationism and geology will have to be studied by me because you obviously know more about geology and the science of it more than me.

4. Is the supernatural component being considered, or is it assumed that everything had to come about naturally and therefore had to evolve.

By me? Yes. By them in scientific study..No.


5. If the mechanism for transition was so common to evolve all the thousands of species that we have today and those that have gone extinct, why don’t we see biology in transition today, and if nature can do it so easy, why can’t modern science do it today? All I see in science is manipulation of existing information within an organism. What I don’t see is science using inorganic materials to create life (which needs DNA), nor do I see them able to subject any organisms to conditions that would have been naturally available on earth to force new beneficial “information” into the DNA for replication that wasn’t already present. Sure, they can damage one component and then another existing one presents itself as a change, and maybe there can be a recombination of existing sequences to bring forth a new trait, but that can only go so far within that “kind” and not be passed on to other kinds if they can’t reproduce in the first place. Yet, how did we end up with so much “convergence” of similar traits that cross over to many different “kinds”?

"Kinds" is the wisdom of the Creator. Which I doubt many will know apart from those who follow the Word.

6. Why do only the perfect and the strong of a species survive with out their transitional forms, and yet all the surrounding weaker types of species survive in their forms? For example, they say humans and apes came from the same ancestor, yet apes are still here. Why not any of the other varieties along the way?

A long time ago, a catholic friend of mine explained to me that that there is "gap" between the cave-man ape neanderthan that evolutionist claim all human ancestry evolved from...Thus, that is not the case.

I could go on, but this would get too long.

I think the Bible tells us why:

Rom 1:20-25 “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever.

True.

 

[Knowledge3]

I am going to purchase that book soon, But I am not in a hurry.Athiests philosophers have tried to disprove God's existence for centures in vain as fact.

So, keyarch? theywhosowintears? teh creationists?? How are ya?

Thoughts...dialogue?