Any Calvinists here?

ChrisManuel · Nov 16, 2011

Sorry Grumpy but God is about to turn our world upside down. When He does much of the church is going to be offended just like you. The real problem I see is man not God. If left to our own choosing man will not repent. He will not cease doing wrong. We will not care for others above ourselves. We want what we want and we want it now! Can you see what is happening even in our schools, and in our government. You want to blame this all on God? I'm telling you that God is going to put a stop to it but it won't be pretty. Read Isaiah 24 the whole chapter. No more theme parks, no more fun period. In the middle of the worst of it, there will be a people who refuse to be offended whether you like it or not. They will continue to sing His praises. He's faithful to the end, He's faithful to my heart. He will come and marry me!

freedom project

Grumpy Old Man · Nov 16, 2011

ChrisManuel said:
Sorry Grumpy but God is about to turn our world upside down. When He does much of the church is going to be offended just like you.

I've heard hundreds of prophecies during the 20 or so years I spent as a Christian, the last 12 of which were spent in the Charismatic movement. None of those prophecies ever came to fruition. I'm going to predict (no pun intended) that you're own prophecy here will fail, just like all the others.

I take it you're a Rapturist who believes Jesus is coming at any minute? I used to believe in the Rapture when I was a Christian. All my knowledge of it came from other people though, and when I took the time to study it out for myself, I found out that the idea of a secret rapture was untrue. Jesus himself says, in Matthew 24, that his own return would be clearly visible. He doesn't say explicitly, nor imply, that he is secretly returning for his believers. In fact, Daniel and John (in the Revelation) say quite openly that many Saints would suffer and die during the Tribulation. Not that I believe such things any more, of course. I'm just urging you to get your head out of the clouds and study the end times stuff for yourself rather than letting some preacher feed it to you.

ChrisManuel said:
He will come and marry me!

< staff edit >

Merlinius · Nov 16, 2011

God has predestinated all Israel to be saved.

We who choose to be saved in Israel, enter into that predestination.

Simple

Grumpy Old Man · Nov 16, 2011

Merlinius said:
God has predestinated all Israel to be saved.

I've actually heard this before and it sounds very wrong. Are you telling me that if I were a Jew, I could rape, kill, and steal all my life without a thought for God yet I'd still be saved? And what's so special about the Jews anyway? They're just flesh and blood like the rest of us. If God can save Israel regardless of whether they want that or not, or whether they believe in God or not, why can't God save everyone?

As a result of these things, I believe your statement to be based on a flawed theology.

Merlinius · Nov 16, 2011

Grumpy Old Man said:
I've actually heard this before and it sounds very wrong. Are you telling me that if I were a Jew, I could rape, kill, and steal all my life without a thought for God yet I'd still be saved? And what's so special about the Jews anyway? They're just flesh and blood like the rest of us. If God can save Israel regardless of whether they want that or not, or whether they believe in God or not, why can't God save everyone?

As a result of these things, I believe your statement to be based on a flawed theology.

Settle down now lol. I didn't say anything about Jews, nor did I say or suggest anything else your < staff edit > print above. No one outside of Christ is saved. THAT is "all Israel saved".

(Rom 11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

(1Co 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Grumpy Old Man · Nov 16, 2011

Merlinius said:
Settle down now lol. I didn't say anything about Jews, nor did I say or suggest anything else <on> your < staff edit > print above. No one outside of Christ is saved. THAT is "all Israel saved".

(Rom 11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

(1Co 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

OK, but this is equally absurd. What does it mean exactly? Some random generation of people living in Israel at the "end times" will get saved? Only people living in Israel throughout all time will get saved?

Given the context of Romans 11, Paul seems somewhat confused. First he says that only a remnant will be spared;

Romans 11

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The Paul rambles on for a while about how salvation was given to the Jews to make Israel jealous. The we have the part you quoted;

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”[g]

Firstly, this "full number of gentiles" hints at Calvinist predestination (we're finally getting back on topic now), but it's not explicit. Out of curiosity I thought I'd check out Strong's on what the "all" in verse 26 means.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

All is pas in Greek and means

1) individually
a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2) collectively
a) some of all types

So we can basically assume that Paul literally believed ALL Israel would be saved. The word "saved" is sozo which is the standard word used for salvation throughout the Bible. Israel basically gets a free ticked to salvation in Paul's eyes. Therefore either Paul is right and God, at some point, will grant Israel salvation regardless of what they believe, or Paul was deluded. Personally, I'm of the latter opinion.

Merlinius · Nov 16, 2011

Grumpy Old Man said:
OK, but this is equally absurd. What does it mean exactly? Some random generation of people living in Israel at the "end times" will get saved? Only people living in Israel throughout all time will get saved?

Given the context of Romans 11, Paul seems somewhat confused. First he says that only a remnant will be spared;

The Paul rambles on for a while about how salvation was given to the Jews to make Israel jealous. The we have the part you quoted;

Firstly, this "full number of gentiles" hints at Calvinist predestination (we're finally getting back on topic now), but it's not explicit. Out of curiosity I thought I'd check out Strong's on what the "all" in verse 26 means.

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

All is pas in Greek and means

So we can basically assume that Paul literally believed ALL Israel would be saved. The word "saved" is sozo which is the standard word used for salvation throughout the Bible. Israel basically gets a free ticked to salvation in Paul's eyes. Therefore either Paul is right and God, at some point, will grant Israel salvation regardless of what they believe, or Paul was deluded. Personally, I'm of the latter opinion.

< staff edit > . Paul knows exactly what he is talking about. Paul is speaking of Christians. Only Christians are Israel. Each man is saved in his own order, as that scripture I posted. It has nothing to do with anything or anyone else.
Christians are the "remnant" saved.
It's elementary.
< staff edit > .
Peace

Grumpy Old Man · Nov 16, 2011

Merlinius said:
< staff edit > uded. Paul knows exactly what he is talking about. Paul is speaking of Christians. Only Christians are Israel. Each man is saved in his own order, as that scripture I posted. It has nothing to do with anything or anyone else.
Christians are the "remnant" saved.
It's elementary.

Check the word "Israel" in Strong's. It actually and literally meant Israel. Paul was talking about Israel, either as a nation, or as a people. He believed they would all be saved. How can this happen? Didn't Jesus say that no one comes to the Father except through him? If no one means nobody, then how is all Israel supposed to be saved if they don't believe in Jesus?

We have three solutions to this problem; a) either God will deliberately save each and every Israeli at some point in the future or; b) every Israeli is saved by default or; c) Paul was a nutcase. Far off in the realm of speculative fiction, it is possible that a could be true; b cannot be true because that would contradict Jesus statement that he (implying belief in him) is the only way to the Father. So my best guess is that Paul was deluded.

If only Christians are Israel, as you say, then what happens to Israel? Why did Paul say all Israel would be saved, when this is not the case? Or are you a "replacement theologian", believing the Church is the new Israel? If Paul wanted to say the Church, he could easily have written Church instead of Israel. But I think Paul wrote exactly what he wanted to say because, as I've said, he was deluded.

< staff edit >
< staff edit >

ChrisManuel · Nov 16, 2011

Grumpy, I think you really have heard the voice of the Lord and you also desire to walk with Him in the cool of the day like it used to be. Btw check out Romans 9:6-7 there is remnant according to promise. Paul was very careful not to contradict himself.

freedom project

Grumpy Old Man · Nov 17, 2011

razeontherock said:
There is no gamble. Which College Prof taught you that? It's not in the text.

Satan effectively made a bet with God that Job would curse God if Satan was allowed to mess with Job's life. Twice actually. Betting is gambling.

What is actually amusing to me is that you're so blinded by your religion that you're more disturbed by semantic details than that your God is willing to join up with Satan to cause a man's suffering.

GrayAngel · Nov 17, 2011

Grumpy Old Man said:
Satan effectively made a bet with God that Job would curse God if Satan was allowed to mess with Job's life. Twice actually. Betting is gambling.

What is actually amusing to me is that you're so blinded by your religion that you're more disturbed by semantic details than that your God is willing to join up with Satan to cause a man's suffering.

It's not gambling if you already know the result beforehand. Satan was playing a role in God's plan, thinking he could outsmart God, but God will always win.

ChrisManuel · Nov 17, 2011

There had to be a measure of doubt in Job's mind about the goodness and mercy of God. A lack of understanding God's character but when all was said and done I bet Job walked in a relationship with God that was incredible. Intimacy with our creator that's what it's all about. In the end we better have our eyes on Him and not on this world. Because it's all coming down!

freedom project

Grumpy Old Man · Nov 17, 2011

ChrisManuel said:
There had to be a measure of doubt in Job's mind about the goodness and mercy of God. A lack of understanding God's character but when all was said and done I bet Job walked in a relationship with God that was incredible. Intimacy with our creator that's what it's all about. In the end we better have our eyes on Him and not on this world. Because it's all coming down!

freedom project

So you wouldn't mind if God sent Satan to kill your children and grandchildren, destroy your business, and kill your staff if it meant a closer relationship with God? I feel sorry you, because you clearly prize your irrational faith over any sense of decency.

GrayAngel · Nov 17, 2011

Grumpy Old Man said:
But Job lost. He lost everything.

For everything Job lost, he got back double. This includes his children, who were lost, but not for forever.

Before:
Job 1:2 - He had seven sons and three daughters,

After:
Job 42:13 - And he also had seven sons and three daughters.

God doesn't let us suffer without making things right. For Job, his enduring faith was his badge of honor, and he was rewarded with double of everything he lost.

The first century Christians also viewed their suffering as a gift from God.

Grumpy Old Man · Nov 17, 2011

GrayAngel said:
For everything Job lost, he got back double. This includes his children, who were lost, but not for forever.

Before:
Job 1:2 - He had seven sons and three daughters,

After:
Job 42:13 - And he also had seven sons and three daughters.

God doesn't let us suffer without making things right. For Job, his enduring faith was his badge of honor, and he was rewarded with double of everything he lost.

The first century Christians also viewed their suffering as a gift from God.

I dealt with this in the other thread. I'm done with the topic of Job now.

razeontherock · Nov 17, 2011

Grumpy Old Man said:
But Job lost. He lost everything.

Just like Jesus lost everything

So what did accomplish, via Job's suffering?

ChrisManuel · Nov 17, 2011

Celebration time! This is my 100th post on the forum, Hallelujah!

freedom project

FreeinChrist · Nov 17, 2011

MOD HAT

Closing this thread for review

Hisbygrace · Nov 22, 2011

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