Anti-universalism hostility

FineLinen · Jan 29, 2020

TheLostCoin said:
Eternal torment for mankind is a potentiality (that is, something which may happen). Universal reconciliation is an actuality (something that will happen).

Moreover, the fear of hell helps motivate mankind to move to repentance from their idols of earthly things.

Dear LostCoin: There is no such animal as "eternal torment". The fear of hell is not a foundation for believing into the Saviour of all mankind, NOT.

I am among the sillies who believe what the Author begins He completes in astounding proportions of grandeur. Yes, friend, it may seem impossible when you behold the broken wrecks of our species how impossible it may seem, but He does all things well, well in spectacular dimensions!

The whole of created life shall be delivered, the radical all of pas.

TheLostCoin · Jan 29, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Fear motivates external compliance - not an intrinsic heart change:

Romans 2:4 ~ Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance?

1 John 4:19 ~ We love because he first loved us.

Romans 5:8 ~ But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 4:10 ~ And love consists in this: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

1 John 4:18 ~ There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love.

1. The two aren't mutually exclusive. One can pursue God because he / she both loves God and fears Hell.

2. The rules one complies with are there for a reason, and that's to motivate a heart change, even if those who externally comply never reach a state. While the Pharisees took the rules both mechanically and arbitrarily that it undercut the purpose of why those rules were there in the first place, it was God that put those rules there for the Israelites in the first place.

TheLostCoin · Jan 29, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear LostCoin: There is no such animal as "eternal torment". The fear of hell is not a foundation for believing into the Saviour of all mankind, NOT.

I am among the sillies who believe what the Author begins He completes in astounding proportions of grandeur. Yes, friend, it may seem impossible when you behold the broken wrecks of our species how impossible it may seem, but He does all things well, well in spectacular dimensions!

The whole of created life shall be delivered, the radical all of pas.

I hope so, but I do not know so, and the Scriptures indicate otherwise. Jesus was very harsh at points, for reasons of Love, much like a father disciplines his child. And His talks on eternal darkness and eternal fire are not something one should take lightly.

chilehed · Jan 29, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
In this short video, David Bentley Hart suggests that the emotionally-driven objection of many Christians to universal salvation/ restorationism is motivated by a childish view that 'For me to win, someone has to lose'.

What kind of nonsense is that?! I've NEVER heard anyone say or imply anything of the kind.

TheLostCoin · Jan 29, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Lost Coin: One is only lost until found by the One who loses nothing.

“…Nothing can be lost that is not first owned. Just as a parent is compelled by civil law to be responsible for his family and his property, so the Creator --by His own divine law–in compelled to take care of the children He has created. And that means not only caring for the good children, but for the bad ones and lost ones as well… If a person is a ‘lost sinner’ it only means that he is temporarily separated from the Good Shepherd who owns him. The Shepherd is bound by all duties of ownership to go after all those who are lost until they are found.” -Catherine Marshall-

The good, the bad & the ugly

God bless you. That really touched my heart. But pray for me.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 29, 2020

Since universalism is anathema as a false gospel (as Jesus Says),

isn't anti-universalism necessary for everyone seeking Yahweh's Kingdom ?

i.e. yes, Jesus is hostile , always, against that which destroys souls. And He Knows Perfectly.

FineLinen · Jan 29, 2020

TheLostCoin said:
Thank you. That really touched my heart. But pray for me.

Dear brother: There is ONLY one way to know the answer to the deepest depths of our God. It must come out of our union with Him. In that union with Abba, He speaks what is in His glorious Heart by the road of ephphatha. He alone can open blind eyes and deaf ears which every last one of us possess until we hear Him speak.

I will pray for you my friend!

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 29, 2020

biblehub.com › colossians

Colossians 2:4 I say this so that no one will deceive you by ...
Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. King James Bible And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
www.biblegateway.com › verse

/Colossians 2:4 - Bible Gateway
But I don't want anyone to fool you with words that only sound good. NIV. I tell you ... Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words. NLV.

mkgal1 · Jan 29, 2020

TheLostCoin said:
Jesus was very harsh at points

Can you point out some specific places - specific words Jesus used that were harsh (and to whom He had directed those words)? Are you familiar with this context?

Quoting Ray Vander Laan: ------->The Jewish Revolts

Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message.

THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response.

~ The Jewish Revolts

From article by Vladimir Moss

In the fullness of time, in accordance with the plan that He had indicated to Adam and Eve immediately after the Fall, and in accordance with the sayings of the Old Testament prophets, God, the Creator of the universe, became a man in the womb of the Holy Virgin Mary. Having lived a life of perfect virtue, He offered a perfect Sacrifice for the sins of all mankind on the Cross, died, and descended into hades, destroying the power of the devil and leading all the dead who believed in Him into Paradise. Then, on the third day, He rose from the dead, appeared to His disciples in His resurrected Body, and on the fortieth day ascended in glory into heaven. Ten days later, at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples, creating the New Testament Church.

MORE HERE: CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 29, 2020

Get thee behind ME (JESUS) Satan (in Peter) .

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 29, 2020

To the disciples; Jesus said: Have you been with Me so long, and still do not understand !?

"How long must I put up with you(permanent disciples) " (may be paraphrased.)

Der Alte · Jan 29, 2020

mkgal1 said:
In the same way that everyone dies in Adam, so also everyone will be given life in Christ.~1st Corinthians 15:22

Let us read that verse correctly translated.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

All men are "in Adam" since all mankind is literally descended from Adam. But all me are not "in Christ."
Let us see what Paul said about being "in Christ."

Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Not in Christ, no redemption.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Not in Christ and walk after the flesh, condemnation

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

Not in Christ, the veil is not taken away.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Not in Christ, not a new creature old things are not passed away.

Ephesians 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Not in Christ, not gathered together.

Ephesian 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Not in Christ, still afar off not nigh.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Not in Christ, do not obtain salvation, no eternal glory
Paul said more than once that several groups of people have no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
(9) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
(10) nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
(19) The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
(20) idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
(21) and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5
(5) For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17
(17) If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 29, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Show me where Jesus stated clearly "If a person doesn't 'give their heart to me' they will forever be tormented in Hell". If it were such a critical matter - certainly He wouldn't have left it vague and confusing.....it would have been His entire ministry (and not just during His time - why don't we see it stated in the first five books of the Old Testament clearly - especially in the account of Adam and Eve?).

The Father in Heaven allows such errors as you seem now to have embraced, for His Own Reasons, in His Perfect Wisdom He allowed you to fall away from Jesus, and won't make you come back against your free will.

Truth seems more rare every day ....

mkgal1 said:
" When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me.”~John 12:32
Elsewhere:

In the same way that everyone dies in Adam, so also everyone will be given life in Christ.~1st Corinthians 15:22
The grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.~Titus 2:1

Using Scripture incorrectly this way, without understanding from the Father in heaven, and contrary to His Word, seems unbecoming someone seeking His Kingdom.

mkgal1 · Jan 29, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
It seems you did not used to be on the wide path to destruction, yet now have abandoned Jesus to follow with others the sinful way/ the false gospel.

You needn't be concerned about me, Jeff - I've NOT "abandoned Jesus to follow others".

yeshuaslavejeff · Jan 29, 2020

mkgal1 said:
You needn't be concerned about me, Jeff - I've NOT "abandoned Jesus to follow others".

I won't bother with replying to you more then .... unless Yahweh Says to.

TheLostCoin · Jan 29, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Can you point out some specific places - specific words Jesus used that were harsh (and to whom He had directed those words)? Are you familiar with this context?

Quoting Ray Vander Laan: ------->The Jewish Revolts

Jewish people of Jesus' day had a passionate desire for freedom from the domination of the pagan Romans and the oppressive Herod dynasty that had ruled them for many years. Revolt seethed continuously, mostly underground, for more than 100 years from the time Herod became king (37 BC) until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple (AD 70).It is helpful to realize that this underlying struggle is the backdrop for Jesus' ministry, and why so many hoped he would be a conquering king. This helps us understand why the adulation of the crowds during the triumphal entry reduced Jesus to tears, and probably why many rejected his message.

THE RISING STORM Ever since the Romans arrived on the scene in 64 BC, the Jewish people were divided over how to respond to the rule of their often corrupt governors or the Herod family who served them. The religious community, particularly the Pharisees, believed the Jewish people were to be God's instruments on earth, from whom the Messiah would come to institute that glorious age when Israel would be a great and free nation. Many others, especially the secular community and apparently some of the Sadducees, noted the present reality of the rule of Rome and determined that cooperation was the best policy. The tyrannical rule of Rome and the paganism of its religious and Hellenistic culture heightened the contrast between the situation at hand and the messianic hopes. This difference produced increasing fragmentation of the people, and several movements developed in response.

~ The Jewish Revolts

From article by Vladimir Moss

In the fullness of time, in accordance with the plan that He had indicated to Adam and Eve immediately after the Fall, and in accordance with the sayings of the Old Testament prophets, God, the Creator of the universe, became a man in the womb of the Holy Virgin Mary. Having lived a life of perfect virtue, He offered a perfect Sacrifice for the sins of all mankind on the Cross, died, and descended into hades, destroying the power of the devil and leading all the dead who believed in Him into Paradise. Then, on the third day, He rose from the dead, appeared to His disciples in His resurrected Body, and on the fortieth day ascended in glory into heaven. Ten days later, at Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended on the disciples, creating the New Testament Church.

MORE HERE: CHRIST, ISRAEL AND THE FALL OF JERUSALEM

All of Matthew 23 to the Pharisees. Specifically, 23:27 to the end.
Matthew 25:41-46 to those damned at the Last Judgment.
Matthew 7:15-23 to false prophets, even those who spoke in Christ's name
Matthew 25:1-13 to those who wasted their life instead of preparing for the Kingdom of God
Luke 16:19-31 to those who don't love their neighbor as themselves
John 6:67-71 to the Apostles, but probably Judas
John 8:42-47 to the Pharisees
Matthew 22:11-14 to those who come to the Wedding Feast unprepared (arguably, those who have the opportunity for the Eucharist but sacrilegiously consume it).
Luke 23:26-31 to women who were mourning for Him because they thought Him to be a righteously condemned sinner.
Matthew 13:24-40 to the damned during the Last Judgment (see Matthew 13:47-50 for an explicit explanation)
Matthew 25:14-30 to those whom a lot has been given and nothing is done for the Kingdom of God and others.

SkyWriting · Jan 29, 2020

Charlie24 said:
If you're wrong about UR, and I'm certain you are, there is a false hope sent to millions that no matter what they do, they will eventually make it to heaven. Expanding the mercy and grace of God to this degree is called heresy, that is, if you are wrong, and again, I'm certain you are wrong.

Because you need to be right?
Did you know that you lose all arguments with people that you win?

Euodius · Jan 29, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
If you're referring to the 5th Ecumenical Council, I think you'll find on close inspection that the condemnations against universalism were never confirmed by the Pope and many other bishops, and the devil's uxorious minion Justinian was the political force behind trying to make the condemnations stick. So may I caution you against blithely accepting the monstrous fable that UR was ever held to be heretical.

You mean St Justinian. Also, Origen was condemned at the 6th and 7th. In the 6th a confession of faith condemning Origen for his numerous errors, including not holding to a historical view of Genesis and univeralism, was unanimously accepted by the bishops and ratified by the Pope. This was further confirmed at Trullo.

St. Justinian is a great defender of Orthodoxy for a reason. If you call him the devil's minion and reject the deposit of faith given by the defenders of Orthodoxy, then you are heterodox and, indeed, heretical.

Euodius · Jan 29, 2020

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Then he's wrong. Politics and religion drive emotional reaction no matter what side you're on or what aspect is being discussed. That's the nature of the beast. To accuse the other side of being childish for being emotionally attached to their religious views is an ad hominem argument, and an objectively false one at that.

Might as well accept Calvin's denial of the intercession of the saints on the justification that "Augustine was just sad that his mother died, so he adopted paganism... same with all the others who ever spoke on the topic" - The Institutes

Charlie24 · Jan 29, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Because you need to be right?
Did you know that you lose all arguments with people that you win?

No, I was thinking more along the lines of them being wrong.

Anti-universalism hostility

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