Anti-intellectualism and hostility to Theology

[lismore]

Hello. I have seen both extremes, charismatic speakers looking down on those with theological degrees and I have seen those with degrees looking down on others without.

But what is more important I think is being called and appointed by God to preach.

Paul was called by God, he was a very highly schooled and educated speaker. Peter was called by God, he had little formal education.

If someone is not called by God it won't matter about whether or not they have degrees, nothing they say will have eternal significance.

God Bless

 

[Sabertooth]

...nothing they say will have eternal significance.

At least, in the pulpit. I believe the voices of every Christian are relevant to advancing the Kingdom of God. Philipp and the Ethiopian eunuch is a good example.

Paul says that the purpose of the five-fold ministries is "for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,..." Ephesians 4:12 NKJV

That is going to entail some talking.

 

[Francis Drake]

1 Corinthians 12:12-27
One Body but Many Parts....
In terms of my OP, on the issue of theology and the hostility towards it, I really believe the people who sneer at theology and the people who do it really are doing what this chapter is speaking out against!

Except that the above verses are all about the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and have nothing to do with theology!

Theology is merely another academic subject like Physics or Latin. It is well studied and analysed by Non Christians and Christians alike, both of whom gain equal qualifications.

Most of Jesus's ministry was in direct conflict with the expert theologians of the day, most of whom were spiritually dead!

When the apostles went forth after Pentecost, their conflict was also primarily against the theologians who withstood them violently and killed many.

The gifts of the Spirit come from the Tree of Life.
Theology comes from the Tree of Knowledge of Good or Evil.

Theology is worthless unless it is completely subject to the Holy Spirit. No matter how qualified a theologian is, I would much rather sit down with a spirit led Galilean fisherman!

 

[Sabertooth]

Theology comes from the Tree of Knowledge of Good or Evil.

While I agree that one's mind must be subservient to their redeemed spirit, I must object that its actions are limited by the effects of the KOGE tree.

Adam's earliest duty, naming the animals, was a [pre-KOGE] intellectual exercise. Accordingly, animal taxonomy is considered to be the world's oldest profession.

In the case of Theology, redeemed Christians have an ever-improving view on the subject compared to their non-redeemed counterparts.

 

[lismore]

At least, in the pulpit. I believe the voices of every Christian are relevant to advancing the Kingdom of God.

Yes. Agreed. In the pulpit we need to be careful, I think only someone genuinely called by God should be permitted to teach the church. It should be guarded stringently as those who teach the church have a huge responsibility. Wrong teaching can greatly damage God's people whereas good teaching can greatly advance the Kingdom. Too many self-appointed or wrongly appointed leaders are in pulpits making up their own teachings. God Bless

 

[Francis Drake]

While I agree that one's mind must be subservient to their redeemed spirit, I must object that its actions are limited by the effects of the KOGE tree.

The Tree of Knowledge hasn't changed, it's still an active part of every man and woman on earth, believer and unbeliever.
As an aside, I recall the day many years ago when waiting on the Lord, that God spoke to me and said "Every day, you do, what Adam did!"
I could have been crushed, but I knew it was true and it was said with such love that I just agreed with Him.
"Yes, guilty as charged."

And therein lies the problem.
Everyday, like you @Sabertooth and the rest of Christendom, despite my best efforts, I lose sight of the fact that God is there indwelling me.
But thankfully, I am redeemed entirely by the blood of the lamb and not by my own righteousness. So I pick myself up, dust myself down and start all over again.

My intentions are good, but am in a constant battle between my mind and my spirit as to who rules.

Adam's earliest duty, naming the animals, was a [pre-KOGE] intellectual exercise. Accordingly, animal taxonomy is considered to be the world's oldest profession.

Doesn't count.
Adam was walking around the garden with his creator, like a child with daddy. And yes, he was using his intellect to describe and name the animals, but at no time was he supplanting his creator and acting independently as he chose to do at the Tree of Knowledge.

In the case of Theology, redeemed Christians have an ever-improving view on the subject compared to their non-redeemed counterparts.

That may be true in some cases, but in most cases, redeemed Christian theologians live from the Tree of Knowledge, from their intellectual abilities.
If that were not absolutely true, we wouldn't have so many theological arguments among believers.

 

[Francis Drake]

Yes. Agreed. In the pulpit we need to be careful, I think only someone genuinely called by God should be permitted to teach the church. It should be guarded stringently as those who teach the church have a huge responsibility. Wrong teaching can greatly damage God's people whereas good teaching can greatly advance the Kingdom. Too many self-appointed or wrongly appointed leaders are in pulpits making up their own teachings. God Bless

I understand where you are coming from, but on whose authority do we decide someone is genuinely called by God, do we go check their academic certificates?
In effect, that is where most churches are at present. Their pastors and teachers carrying some paper qualification from a theological tree of knowledge factory!

Although I believe @Pavel Mosko understood it back to front, in post No7 he quotes 1Cor12, part of which below.- (and incidentally, you will see there is no mention of theology whatsoever!)

7Now to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit, for the common profiting. 8For truly, to one is given a word of wisdom by the Spirit, and to another a word of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9and to a different one faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10and to another working of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another distinguishing of spirits, and to a different one various kinds of tongues, and to another interpretation of tongues. 11Now one and the same the Spirit works all these things, apportioning individually to each as He wills.

You can see that the gathering together made use of all of the gifts from all of the people.
The idea of a one man ministry standing at the front of the meeting is completely alien to the early church!

Again we see this in 1Cor14
26What then is it, brothers? When you may come together, each has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
So again we have a collective ministry at work.

27If anyone speaks with a tongue, let it be by two or the most three, and in turn; and let one interpret. 28But if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
Taking it in turn and waiting on each other was the model Paul called for.

29And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others discern. 30But if a revelation should be made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. 31For you are all able to prophesy one by one, so that all may learn, and all may be exhorted. 32And the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For He is not the God of disorder, but of peace.
Again, taking it in turn and waiting on each other that all present are valued members of the ministry, rather than exalted personages controlling everything from the front.

The way to ensure we get good teaching is not by installing a specially qualified master theologian, but by releasing the ministry of the Holy Spirit back the whole body just as Paul instructed.

Whoever you install in the pulpit, the problem lies in the pulpit itself. The early church had no place for an earthly pulpit.
The only pulpit was the throne of God in heaven, speaking through all members of Christ's body.
The Holy Spirit to work through all members is the only way God has given to combat error.

 

[Sabertooth]

That may be true in some cases, but in most cases, redeemed Christian theologians live from the Tree of Knowledge, from their intellectual abilities.
If that were not absolutely true, we wouldn't have so many theological arguments among believers.

You are not factoring the Tares [Matthew 13:24-30, particularly Matthew 13:30] into the equation.

Romans 12:2 IS an ever-improving Theology.

 

[Francis Drake]

You are not factoring the Tares [Matthew 13:24-30, particularly Matthew 13:30] into the equation.

Romans 12:2 IS an ever-improving Theology.

My comments are not about the wheat and the tares, although that is a very serious problem in the church.
I am speaking about born again Christian leaders who live from their intellect.

 

[Sabertooth]

That may be true in some cases, but in most cases, redeemed Christian theologians live from the Tree of Knowledge, from their intellectual abilities.
If that were not absolutely true, we wouldn't have so many theological arguments among believers.

My comments are not about the wheat and the tares, although that is a very serious problem in the church.

I am proposing that conflicting doctrines might be the product of Tares disguised as "Christian Theologians."

Romans 12:2 puts the burden on all real Christians to become Spirit-led Theologians. We will still look different, at first, because we all start from different places.

 

[Francis Drake]

I am proposing that conflicting doctrines might be the product of Tares disguised as "Christian Theologians."

I disagree.
If you and I spent a day in a room discussing scripture, I am sure we would find there are many areas of disagreement. Yet I am certainly no "Tare disguised as a 'Christian Theologian'" and in my opinion, neither are you!!
We are both on a journey, seeking deeper truth, but at times we let our intellectual knowledge overrule what Christ actually meant in the words of scripture.
Unfortunately many born again church leaders have never even considered that question.

Romans 12:2 puts the burden on all real Christians to become Spirit-led Theologians. We will still look different, at first, because we all start from different places.

Again I disagree.
Romans12 certainly puts the burden on all real Christians to become spirit led, but it speaks nothing about being theologians.
Paul is describing the distribution of Holy Spirit ministries and Holy Spirit gifts throughout the body and in no place is theology even mentioned!

The nearest reference is to the gift of teaching, but that does not necessarily mean theology. The gift of teaching refers to every aspect of life in the Holy Spirit, only some of which may include scripture.

And finally, for reference, I was called into the teaching ministry by the Lord back in the 70s, and I love the scriptures. So please do not misunderstand where I am coming from in my posts here!

 

[Sabertooth]

I am sure we would find there are many areas of disagreement.

I am certain that is because God doesn't grow everyone in a uniform sequence. Assuming that you are not a Tare, you might get some truths before I do, and I, some before you.

Romans12 certainly puts the burden on all real Christians to become spirit led, but it speaks nothing about being theologians.
Paul is describing the distribution of Holy Spirit ministries and Holy Spirit gifts throughout the body and in no place is theology even mentioned!

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Romans 12:2 NKJV

The mind being renewed by the Spirit about the nature of the Kingdom of God is a very practical form of Theology.

 

[Francis Drake]

I am certain that is because God doesn't grow everyone in a uniform sequence.

But personal growth is down to us, not God!
The parable of the sower shows the weeds and stones that destroy spiritual growth reside in our hearts. It is our job to clear them out.
If we fail to clear them out, any "theology" will be nothing more than dead human intellect.

Assuming that you are not a Tare, you might get some truths before I do, and I, some before you.

Agreed.

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Romans 12:2 NKJV

Our mind is only renewed when it is made subject to our spirit.

The mind being renewed by the Spirit about the nature of the Kingdom of God is a very practical form of Theology.

No. Being renewed by the spirit is not the recognised definition of theology.
Theology degrees are awarded to spiritually dead people. I can be renewed in the spirit without the slightest knowledge of theology.

 

[lismore]

I understand where you are coming from, but on whose authority do we decide someone is genuinely called by God, do we go check their academic certificates?
.

No. I would say what Jesus said, by their fruit you will know them. Do they show the fruit of the Spirit or the fruit of the sin nature. There is no third category. God Bless

 

[Francis Drake]

No. I would say what Jesus said, by their fruit you will know them. Do they show the fruit of the Spirit or the fruit of the sin nature. There is no third category. God Bless

Nevertheless, there is no scriptural support whatsoever for pulpit ministries.
As my previous post (No27) states the ministry of the Holy Spirit was intended to come collectively from all members of the Body of Christ, not some special man at the front.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

In the case of Theology, redeemed Christians have an ever-improving view on the subject compared to their non-redeemed counterparts.

Exactly. Christian Theology is just the gift of teaching, except pursued more rigorously than what your average lay Bible study person does.

And technically speaking, everybody has a theology since everybody has conceptions about God and doctrine etc.

 

[Svt4Him]

If we're going to praise intellectualism, and I'm not against that, we also need to address fallacies. The op is full of them. Anecdotal evidence is a fallacy, so I'm not sure why it's use to show anti-intellectualism. Show me where anyone is against it.

Oh it's interesting to be back!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Show me where anyone is against it.

Oh it's interesting to be back!

lol you haven't been paying attention, read Francis Drakes posts in the thread in regards to Theology etc.


And on the Fallacies end of thing, I'm not sure how that relates to personal experience and such. All my anecdotes are personal experiences as well as having conversations with other folks. I think its pretty easy to make a case for what I'm saying Sociologically and Anthropologically speaking, but I'm not interested in talking demographics and other kinds of empirical data, so call me illogical, the point of the thread is to complain about the slings and arrows of the past and present Mr. Canuck!

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Hi Saber! I get what your saying, but I think I may disagree on some fine points. I may be posting more on root words for Spiritual Discernment and stuff like that. Maybe tomorrow or the coming days, but thanks for posting.

PS - come to think of it, that will be a later thread.

Mark 12:30Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If I may split hairs, educated and intelligent [the topic of the OP] aren't necessarily the same thing. And there is a third, related element, wisdom.

I don't know where I am going with this, but the emphasis of education seems to be a departure from the OP.

If we were to compare knowledge to money,

1. An academic would be like a man who has amassed a sizable fortune,
2. An intellectual would be like someone who is skilled at manipulating such resources, be they his or someone else's, and
3. A wise man would have a vision for advancing said resources to Godly objectives.

They are three different qualities that may or may not exist in a single individual, but they are not synonymous.

Even Paul disowned his education at times [1 Corinthians 2:1-3].

"Paul’s words in the second chapter of 1 Corinthians have often been misinterpreted. Some take them to mean that we need not concern ourselves with education, or reading, or study, or aesthetics—that we need not work to make worship or preaching a work of art, that we need not hone our logical mind, or use our analytical intelligence to seek and find God’s truth. It is always tempting for us to use spirituality as an excuse for our own laziness—intellectual or otherwise." Paul’s Anti-Anti-Intellectualism