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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Anti-Catholicism?
- Thread starter tigersnare
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Tigersnare . .. thank you for what you did regarding a post in your thread in PRE . . . I don't know if you saw some of the comments by a particular poster as being anti-catholic . .but to me, they were at least veilled ones and they didn't correctly represent the Catholic Position . . I appreciate that you asked that they be removed and I equally appreciate that the poster of the comments removed them as well. 
This was an example of what we see as anit-catholic . . bringing up Catholicism in a negative light, incorrectly representing it, and what one perceives as wrong with it even though, and especially when, it has nothing to do with the subject being discussed . .
Since the comments are gone, I am not bringing this up to discuss the particular comments, but since you are aware of what they were, so you can have a better idea of what we mean.
Thank you again!
Peace in Him!
This was an example of what we see as anit-catholic . . bringing up Catholicism in a negative light, incorrectly representing it, and what one perceives as wrong with it even though, and especially when, it has nothing to do with the subject being discussed . .
Since the comments are gone, I am not bringing this up to discuss the particular comments, but since you are aware of what they were, so you can have a better idea of what we mean.
Thank you again!
Peace in Him!
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tigersnare said:I'm learning
And Thank You for promoting peace and unity . .
Peace in Him!
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KennySe said:
I believe the sentence is correct. Would you prefer "Catholics say Jesus is in a piece of bread, but deny that the bread is still bread"? Or "Catholics say Jesus is in what everyone else calls a piece of bread"?
I think that's a weak defense. If a worshipper of Baal (for example) is told he's an idol worshipper, and he says "I'm not an idol worshipper. That's not an idol, that's Baal himself manifest on earth," would you agree that he's not an idol worshipper? Does the worshipper have to agree that the idol is "just an idol" to be an idol worshipper?
I've attended a number of masses, and I've never had the impression that people were worshipping the (former) bread.
As to the name "Roman Catholic," I think it's useful and not necessarily pejorative. There are many churches calling themselves Catholic churches, but I've never seen any church called Roman Catholic that wasn't under the Pope. (Also, I've heard byzantine Catholics refer to churches that use the latin rite as "Roman Catholic," as if the Eastern Churches are somehow not.)
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RollTroll,
*I* prefer that non-Catholics say, "The Catholics say that Jesus is really truly present in a sacramental way in the Holy Eucharist."
And if that is too hard to remember, then "Catholics believe Jesus when He said, 'This is my body.'".
***
While I do not appreciate your example of Baal worship, I will address it kindly here.
*I* would say "Baal worshippers say that Baal himself is present in that carving."
And there is NO need for me to add anything further.
*I* prefer that non-Catholics say, "The Catholics say that Jesus is really truly present in a sacramental way in the Holy Eucharist."
And if that is too hard to remember, then "Catholics believe Jesus when He said, 'This is my body.'".
***
While I do not appreciate your example of Baal worship, I will address it kindly here.
*I* would say "Baal worshippers say that Baal himself is present in that carving."
And there is NO need for me to add anything further.
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What we are trying to say is that one should comment on another's faith in a charitable way . . If someone says "Catholics say Jesus is in a piece of bread" that really doesn't say what we say, but how someone interprets what we say . .RoleTroll said:
It would be better to say . . "Catholics believe that the bread, when it is consecrated by the priest, really turns into the body of Christ even though it still looks like bread" . . that accurately says what we believe without mistating it . .
We do not believe that Christ is "IN" the bread at all . . so neither of your statements you suggested as alternatives would accurately represent the Catholic belief . .
If you would like us to discuss this further, please feel free to start a new thread so as not to derail this one, and ask us about it . .we are more than happy to answer questions to help clear up misunderstandings. We will not require that you believe what we believe . .we just want to be represented accurately so that anti-catholic sentiments are not inflamed by misrepresentations of what we really believe ..
First, one has to understand what an idol is in the Old Testament .. an idol WAS the god . .that stone, that tree, that statue, was, in and of itself the god they worshipped .. not something that existed in addition to the god who existed elsewhere . . they would not say "that is Baal himslef manifested on earth" . . that would say "that is Baal" period! Idol worshippers are those who worship things of this earth as though that thing is actually a god . . not representing a god, or somehow a manifestation of that god, but actually is their god . .
We don't worship bread of course . .but we do worship Christ. Again, in order not to derail this thread with more questions/disucssions about particular doctrines/teachings of the Church, please feel free to start a new thread, or several threads!
We are more than happy to answer them!Peace in Him!
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KennySe said:
Fair enough - though the second seems to imply that non-Catholics disbelieve Jesus.
And sorry, I was not trying to compare Jesus to Baal with my example. I was simply trying to think of an example of a religion that you would agree are idol worshippers, and that's the only thing that came to mind.
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I think we're down to semantics here. I believe you are saying that not only should you refer to another religion's belief in a way that is denotatively accurate, but also connotatively fair, and I agree with that.
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RoleTroll said:
That wasn't my intention, however I do see now how you (or anyone) might assume that.
Ok then, try to memorize this one,if it meets your approval,
"Catholics believe Jesus was speaking literally when He said, 'This is my body.'"
Okey dokey.
Realize that tensions at CF are rather high right now.
Peace be with you.
Kenny
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Polycarp1
Born-again Liberal Episcopalian
Kenny and others:
With reference to the comment "tensions at CF are rather high CF right now," may I add my own view, without having it construed as being anti-Catholic?
I fully understand that Catholicism sees itself as the original church, founded by Christ through the commission to Peter ("on this rock") and preserving the fullness of the Deposit of Faith -- and that the Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants, etc. have split off from it, and are either schismatic or heretical by its standards. This is your belief and you are privileged to hold it -- if you did not, you would not remain Catholics, right?
However, there are ways and means to express that that build up the unity of Catholics and their "separated brethren" like myself, and there are ways to express it that demean our beliefs. In IDD a while ago, I was haughtily informed by a Catholic member here (whom I am carefully not naming) that our church did not believe in the Real Presence and did not have valid orders -- when I had been working with thereselittleflower in that thread to show how we believed ourselves to be in fact in very close proximity to Catholic belief on Holy Orders and the Real Presence. That sort of snottiness, along with defending the view in my second paragraph in a way that denigrates the beliefs of all non-Catholics, is a part of the reason for the anti-Catholicism that has emerged.
Holding to the Apostolic Succession, the importance of Holy Tradition, the grace-giving efficacy of the Sacraments, the belief in priestly absolution, the tradition of the Communion of Saints, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and many another "Catholic" belief, I would never want to be accused of "Catholic-bashing" and would in fact do my utmost to defend your particular beliefs, especially when probably 80-90% of them are ones which I hold as well. But, being human, I must confess that it irks me no end when that sort of pontification occurs.
In the now closed thread in Suggestions, Bugs, and Help, I commented on the line Wolseley quoted for me well over a year ago on another board, to the effect that "Catholicism holds the fullness of the Deposit of Faith," in which other denominations participate according to their own belief system. This strikes me as a positive way of expressing your understandable sense that your church is in fact unique and special in a way that other churches are not, without at the same time denigrating the beliefs of others. Thereselittleflower was a paragon of tact and understanding in that IDD thread, and I feel we learned a lot about each other's belief system in our exchange.
I offer this as a gesture of help, a bit of constructive criticism, in an effort to get past the sniping exchanges that we have experienced recently here at CF. I would be chagrined if anyone took it as a condemnation of Catholicism in any way -- if there is any condemnation in it, it is of a few people, on both sides, being tactless in saying what they believe in a way that demeans others and their beliefs.
I ask for your prayers for myself and for my church, badly wounded by its own actions recently, and I ask you to join my prayers with yours as we approach the (Catholic-inspired) Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. Having been on retreat twice at Graymoor where it was started and holding a strong sense that it is God's will that we should all be one, this has been a very important part of my prayer life for twenty years now.
With reference to the comment "tensions at CF are rather high CF right now," may I add my own view, without having it construed as being anti-Catholic?
I fully understand that Catholicism sees itself as the original church, founded by Christ through the commission to Peter ("on this rock") and preserving the fullness of the Deposit of Faith -- and that the Orthodox, Anglicans, Protestants, etc. have split off from it, and are either schismatic or heretical by its standards. This is your belief and you are privileged to hold it -- if you did not, you would not remain Catholics, right?
However, there are ways and means to express that that build up the unity of Catholics and their "separated brethren" like myself, and there are ways to express it that demean our beliefs. In IDD a while ago, I was haughtily informed by a Catholic member here (whom I am carefully not naming) that our church did not believe in the Real Presence and did not have valid orders -- when I had been working with thereselittleflower in that thread to show how we believed ourselves to be in fact in very close proximity to Catholic belief on Holy Orders and the Real Presence. That sort of snottiness, along with defending the view in my second paragraph in a way that denigrates the beliefs of all non-Catholics, is a part of the reason for the anti-Catholicism that has emerged.
Holding to the Apostolic Succession, the importance of Holy Tradition, the grace-giving efficacy of the Sacraments, the belief in priestly absolution, the tradition of the Communion of Saints, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and many another "Catholic" belief, I would never want to be accused of "Catholic-bashing" and would in fact do my utmost to defend your particular beliefs, especially when probably 80-90% of them are ones which I hold as well. But, being human, I must confess that it irks me no end when that sort of pontification occurs.
In the now closed thread in Suggestions, Bugs, and Help, I commented on the line Wolseley quoted for me well over a year ago on another board, to the effect that "Catholicism holds the fullness of the Deposit of Faith," in which other denominations participate according to their own belief system. This strikes me as a positive way of expressing your understandable sense that your church is in fact unique and special in a way that other churches are not, without at the same time denigrating the beliefs of others. Thereselittleflower was a paragon of tact and understanding in that IDD thread, and I feel we learned a lot about each other's belief system in our exchange.
I offer this as a gesture of help, a bit of constructive criticism, in an effort to get past the sniping exchanges that we have experienced recently here at CF. I would be chagrined if anyone took it as a condemnation of Catholicism in any way -- if there is any condemnation in it, it is of a few people, on both sides, being tactless in saying what they believe in a way that demeans others and their beliefs.
I ask for your prayers for myself and for my church, badly wounded by its own actions recently, and I ask you to join my prayers with yours as we approach the (Catholic-inspired) Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. Having been on retreat twice at Graymoor where it was started and holding a strong sense that it is God's will that we should all be one, this has been a very important part of my prayer life for twenty years now.
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ProCommunioneFacior
I'm an ultra-traditionalist, run for your life ;)
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Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us, Polycarp.
You and your church are in my prayers.
And I hope that you will find a forum here that you will feel "at home" in. I read on some thread somewhere (I read too many to keep track) where you posted that you do not fit in 100%.
And as you may not feel "at home" here at OBOB, do please feel that you are a neighbor, who is always welcome to visit us.
You and your church are in my prayers.
And I hope that you will find a forum here that you will feel "at home" in. I read on some thread somewhere (I read too many to keep track) where you posted that you do not fit in 100%.
And as you may not feel "at home" here at OBOB, do please feel that you are a neighbor, who is always welcome to visit us.
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Polycarp, let me be the first to sincerely apologize for any wrong that has been flung your way by myself or any of my other Catholic brethren. Whether these wrongs were intentional or otherwise is of little importance, but what does matter is that we can all grow together in the Lord Jesus. HE is who we have in common. While there are differences that we may not be able to overlook, and which are important, let us never lose sight of Him ... and our relationship to each other because of His life, death, and glorious resurrection.
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