Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day,

I disagree

God grants repentance for the express purpose of leading to Truth:

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

No granting no repentance and thus no knowledge of truth... God is the cause of our repentance, we live out the purposed direct effects.

In Him,

Bill

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godly sorrow worketh repentance That godly sorrow is when men receive a love of the truth

that truth is shined upon them by the true Light that lighteth every man

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, LoveofTruth

Yes you are right God foreknew whom he would gift Faith too.. and that Faith for filled the purpose for which it was given.

The question is valid... the answer is apparent they do not have Faith. We choose Jesus Freely indeed and the gift of faith is why and God is the primary cause of that choice we freely make... Yes.

With out Jesus we would choose the darkness we are and continue to hate the light... But because of God we love the light we once hated, and love the darkness we once loved... what a great and Mighty God.

I will contend thew Children of Jerusalem were gathered prime example would have been Paul. Not retained at all to the unwillingness of Jerusalem herself.... God for fills his own purposes in accordance to his good pleasure all the time and every time with out fail. No one can stay his hand.

In Him,

Bill

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Isaiah 66:3. ...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.4. I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.”

even Judas was called a sheep by Jesus at the beginning of his ministry. By the end Judas betrayed Jesus and fell by transgression. He was lost in the end and had his name blotted out of the book of life.
So a sheep can be lost through unbelief and departing from the living God.

also God called and they would not. Showing that they had a choice to believe or not and to receive him or not to live the light or hate the light.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, LoveOfTruth

Really need some context...

6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Not given not coming yes Jesus knew the given and the not given.

6:29Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

He also knew who God had intended to work belief , and those whom the Father would not work.

In Him,

Bill

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Men are not robots who are controlled to do evil by God. God said when men do evil they do it. God makes no man sin all have choices that God gives them.

God has sown Christ as a seed the true Light to everyone man. This seed is not taken root however in any until they have a broken heart where the ground of thier heart is soft then the seed can take root. But the Light will reprove all at first and show sin and many things. The excellency of the power is of God not of us. But we still have this treasure in earthen vessels. As all do. But not all are in union with Him not all receive him or the love of the truth and many do not love or come to the Light

I speak of a great mystery

nonaeroterraqueous said:

That's an interesting order of cause and effect. You're saying that he chose the ones he knew he was going to get, anyway. That's not a real choice.

We like to do something similar with a bossy coworker, here. Whatever we know she's already about to do, that's what we tell her to do. It galls her to think that it looks like she's obeying us. In your view, you are that bossy coworker, and God asserts the appearance of control by predestining what he already knows you're going to do. You accuse God of a pretense?

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That critique is spot on. It cleverly exposes some of the weaknesses in the Arminian defense.

And yet Calvin was wrong - wrong to presume a forenumbered elect. Here's why.
As I demonstrated on another thread, God is unjust to punish us for Adam's sin unless each of us is Adam, that is, a small physical subsection of one (originally dense) physical soul. Thus YOU sinned in the Garden (even though you don't remember being Adam).

Given this possibility, Calvin was wrong to presume a forenumbered elect. Here's why. I believe that God, before the foundation of the world - and determined to have at least a minimally sized church - identified a percentage of Adamic particles as the elect.

Now here's the clincher. I believe that each of our physical souls consists, in part, of SOME of those particles. Everyone is the elect! Consider an atheist for example. If, during this life, he repents and embraces the gospel, he will be saved. If not, he goes to hell except that, just before death, God will remove his elect particles unto the next generation. Eventually all the elect (all elect particles) will be saved, but not necessarily every human.

God wants all humans to be saved. Calvin presumed this to be an impossibility because he held to unwarranted assumptions about 'the elect'. In doing so, he glossed over HUGE portions of Scripture, such as:
(1) The biblical preeminence of evangelism as theological category. Essentially, he threw out the whole book of Acts.
(2) Calvin overlooked how Paul hedged the elect with a note of contingency, "I suffer all things for the sake of elect, that they MIGHT obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus." This is Paul's shorthand for saying, "Even though everyone around me is the elect, they won't all be saved unless I do my part."
(3) Calvin overlooked Paul's sense of desperation to save as many as possible. "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I MIGHT save some." Paul traveled the world - on foot - so that he might save some who, otherwise, would likely not have been reached/saved. That seems perfectly clear. And the history of evangelism bears out that same pattern. Typically we see that, where the gospel is preached, men are saved. And where it is not preached, quite often, men are not saved.

Calvin was also wrong to presume monergism. Admittedly, I think we can safely say that elect particles are regenerated monergistically - the elect are saved 100% by grace. But for a given atheist in the process of conversion, we don't know whether his non-elect particles contributed some measure of free will. Scripture is less than 100% clear on this issue. This runs parallel to the once-saved-always-saved debate. Many INSIST that Scripture 'clearly' teaches OSAS and yet there are verses that emphasize free will. The elect particles won't lose their salvation - but what about the non-elect particles? Scripture isn't entirely clear. Personally I trust enough in the kindness and patience of God to place my hope and confidence in OSAS - but I'm afraid to test Him on it. For Him to throw my non-elect particles in hell would in no way contradict His written Word.

JAL said:

The elect particles won't lose their salvation - but what about the non-elect particles? Scripture isn't entirely clear.

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This reminds me of Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism. I don't think I have a problem with your particle theory. The problem with Mani's religion is that he mixed Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Christianity in equal proportions.

Christians historically mix Judaism with Greek philosophy. It wouldn't bother me to enter Zoroastrianism and Buddhism in the mix so long we keep New Testament Christianity as the ultimate supreme yardstick with which to check older philosophies. There is no salvation other than by the blood of Jesus.

Andrewn said:

This reminds me of Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism. I don't think I have a problem with your particle theory. The problem with Mani's religion is that he mixed Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Christianity in equal proportions.

Christians historically mix Judaism with Greek philosophy. It wouldn't bother me to enter Zoroastrianism and Buddhism in the mix so long we keep New Testament Christianity as the ultimate supreme yardstick with which to check older philosophies. There is no salvation other than by the blood of Jesus.

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Right. All religions have a LOT of similarities. As a result, what is of most import is not the similarities, but the differences.

zoidar said:

Concerning the "crystal ball". Jesus used foreknowledge to know that Peter would deny him thrice. It was hardly God's doing, was it?

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Yet, Peter was chosen in spite of that.

Your theory would have excluded Peter and Thomas from being chosen.

zoidar said:

What do you think? I'm leaning to believe that God predestined us He knew would put our hope in him (v. 11-12).

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

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No... he elected a multitude of sinners to be conformed to His Son.

ICONO'CLAST said:

No... he elected a multitude of sinners to be conformed to His Son.

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True believers, elect, can depart from God through an evil heart if unbelief (not works) and they calm fall from the grace (that saves) as scripture clearly shows

Hebrews 3:1. Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;...6. But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end....12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

Galatians 5:2. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing...4. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”

Hebrews 10:26. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

ICONO'CLAST said:

No... he elected a multitude of sinners to be conformed to His Son.

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Also we read

“ 2 Peter 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:”

Sure- in Greek

from the base of 939 (through the idea of basality); stable (literally or figuratively):--firm, of force, stedfast, sure

And

fall- a form of 4098; to trip, i.e. (figuratively) to err, sin, fail (of salvation):--fall, offend, stumble