Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
That would mean individuals are adopted right?

Well that is what that passage seems to be saying. That the will of God is the Christ and the defined predestined event is that adoption by Jesus Christ.

It is the process of that adoption in Christ that Paul seems to be explaining to the Ephesians.

Predestined to be conformed (adopted) in the image of the Christ, in another letter.

I don't think there are grounds to extrapolate that predestination event to an individual's salvation.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Well that is what that passage seems to be saying. That the will of God is the Christ and the defined predestined event is that adoption by Jesus Christ.

It is the process of that adoption in Christ that Paul seems to be explaining to the Ephesians.

Predestined to be conformed (adopted) in the image of the Christ, in another letter.

I don't think there are grounds to extrapolate that predestination event to an individual's salvation.

Interesting position. Adoption is related in the text of being in Christ. Can one be in Christ without His saving atonement?

I think Ephesians 1 answers this really. Those who are in Christ are chosen of God adopted children before the foundations of the earth. For us this becomes apparent when we are called to repentance and salvation.

LoveofTruth · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
Where in the Bible is it stated God’s Foreknowledge is equated to “our” faith?

John 6:64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
Interesting position. Adoption is related in the text of being in Christ. Can one be in Christ without His saving atonement?

I think Ephesians 1 answers this really. Those who are in Christ are chosen of God adopted children before the foundations of the earth. For us this becomes apparent when we are called to repentance and salvation.

One cannot be saved apart from that reconciliation event predestined by God.

That is what Paul preaches, that reconciliation to God is only effected through Jesus Christ.

We are predestined to a stance of citizenship in Christ.

Rather than, we are predestined to salvation before even that predestined event occurred, that act of the reconciliation.

Paul doesn't say we are predestined to salvation, Paul says we are predestined to adoption as sons. What is Paul talking about here?

It is very fine distinction portrayed in the text. Not a distinction that I take lightly.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
John 6:64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”

That is not the foreknowledge of Romans 8.

But of course God sees all throughout His creation. That He does know does not mean our faith is the vehicle which He chooses.

Yes the verse you quote says Jesus knew. It did not indicate that’s how God chooses. In fact Jesus said those the Father gives Him He will not reject and they will never perish.

We have to come to the conclusion that God chooses according to His will and purpose. That is supported in the Bible.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
One cannot be saved apart from that reconciliation event predestined by God.

That is what Paul preaches, that reconciliation to God is only effected through Jesus Christ.

We are predestined to a stance of citizenship in Christ.

Rather than, we are predestined to salvation before even that predestined event occurred, that act of the reconciliation.

Paul doesn't say we are predestined to salvation, Paul says we are predestined to adoption as sons. What is Paul talking about here?

It is very fine distinction portrayed in the text. Not a distinction that I take lightly.

Romans 8: NASB

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

LoveofTruth said:
John 6:64. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.”

So does God love the entire world, His creation. Or does God seek to save those He chose from before time even began?

Does God love everyone deeply or does God just love me?

Is God defined as love or is God ultimately defined as sovereign over creation.

Can God love someone opposed to His will?

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
Romans 8: NASB

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

The context of the surrounding chapters of your quotation in that letter to the Romans. Would strongly suggest that 'those whom He foreknew' were the Jews, given Paul is discussing the plight of the Jews.

The Jews were also predestined to salvation. though no one could conceive that to be true.

After all, the Jews crucified the Author of Life and are zealous in their opposition to Christianity. Yet those that God formerly knew (foreknew) the Jews, were ALSO predestined to that same adoption. The context determines how we read your quotation.

If you lift that chapter (Romans 8) out of the embedded context, then you will alter the meaning of Romans 8.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
The context of the surrounding chapters of your quotation in that letter to the Romans. Would strongly suggest that 'those whom He foreknew' were the Jews, given Paul is discussing the plight of the Jews.

He addressed both Jews and Gentiles in the epistle.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
If you lift that chapter (Romans 8) out of the embedded context, then you will alter the meaning of Romans 8.

So the Jews are only justified by faith and only the Jews have the condemnation of Adam?

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
He addressed both Jews and Gentiles in the epistle.

Negative, Paul wrote about the Jews for nine chapters in the letter to the Romans.

Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Paul is focused on Israel throughout the letter to the Romans. Those He foreknew (the Jews), His people, Israel, the chosen nation, have not been grafted out forever!

The context is critical in understanding whom Paul is referring to in Romans.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Negative, Paul wrote about the Jews for nine chapters in the letter to the Romans.

Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

Paul is focused on Israel throughout the letter to the Romans. Those He foreknew (the Jews), His people, Israel, the chosen nation, have not been grafted out forever!

The context is critical in understanding whom Paul is referring to in Romans.

Keep going. Both Jews and Gentiles addressed.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
So the Jews are only justified by faith and only the Jews have the condemnation of Adam?

Technically speaking, you are correct.

The Old Testament is more formally a history of the nation of Israel and the Gentiles though mentioned sporadically are not the subject nation of the O.T.

Jesus was sent ONLY to the Jews.

The Jews being intrinsically a member of the olive tree and are severed from that cultivated olive tree. The Jews were previously the elect, the chosen people, foreknown by God.

The Gentiles not having been chosen by God, not cultivated, not the honorable people, a wild olive, were grafted into the root of the cultivated olive tree.

Jews are cutoff and Gentiles are grafted in.

Has God forsaken the Jews; is what the letter to the Romans is really all about.

Romans 11:25-26
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written.

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
Keep going. Both Jews and Gentiles addressed.

17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

The Gentiles were not foreknown by God, not chosen, not attached to the tree of life. The Gentiles are artificially grafted into that olive tree.

The Jews were expelled from that fellowship with God, that they formerly had. Salvation is for the Jew first and then the Gentile.

Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

A sharp warning that this adoption into Christ is only ever a conditional transaction, and the history of Israel contains the deepest of warnings to every grafted branch.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
Technically speaking, you are correct.

The Old Testament is more formally a history of the nation of Israel and the Gentiles though mentioned sporadically are not the subject nation of the O.T.

Jesus was sent ONLY to the Jews.

The Jews being intrinsically a member of the olive tree and are severed from that cultivated olive tree. The Jews were previously the elect, the chosen people, foreknown by God.

The Gentiles not having been chosen by God, not cultivated, not the honorable people, a wild olive, were grafted into the root of the cultivated olive tree.

Jews are cutoff and Gentiles are grafted in.

Has God forsaken the Jews; is what the letter to the Romans is really all about.

Romans 11:25-26
For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written.

There are several themes in Romans. The prominent is the fallen nature of mankind Gentiles addressed in chapter 1 and Jews in chapter. Then all have fallen and need redemption which chapter 3 covers. Then chapter 4 solidifies that we are all of the seed of Abraham by Faith in Jesus Christ. Then chapter 5 solidifies we are (all people) justified by Faith and then the comparison of the first Adam and the second Jesus Christ.

Chapters 6 & 7 speak of sanctification and chapter 8 ties it all together by emphasizing those who have the Spirit and live by the Spirit are co-heirs with Christ. Thus the called are justified, conformed to the image of Christ and eventually glorified.

Chapters 9-11 are certainly addressing how God in redemptive history has both chosen individuals and groups for His will and purpose.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
The Gentiles were not foreknown by God, not chosen, not attached to the tree of life. The Gentiles are artificially grafted into that olive tree.

The very fact the Gentiles are grafted in means they too were foreknown. God did not just change His mind later on. Jesus even said there were other sheep He had to bring in the fold.

John 10: NASB

16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
The very fact the Gentiles are grafted in means they too were foreknown.

The text does not say that the Gentiles were foreknown by God. The Old Testament declares that the nation of Israel was those people that were foreknown, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Not the Gentiles, the Gentiles were foreign to the covenant that God established with Israel.

The Gentiles were uncircumcised, not under the law, God never inhabited any Gentile temple. The Gentiles were dogs, filthy sinners, the Gentiles never knew God. Jesus was not a Gentile and Jesus was sent only to the Jews.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

God did not just change His mind later on. Jesus even said there were other sheep He had to bring in the fold.

John 10: NASB

16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

You are missing the central point here. The Jews whom were foreknown by God were grafted out, and the Gentiles were later grafted into the olive tree.

Simply because the rejection of the Christ by the Jews increased the grace of God towards the Gentiles.

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

The definition of Gentile means not chosen, non elect, not formerly known by God, not Jewish.

Gentiles were unnatural branches that had to be grafted in and the Jews, the natural cultivated branches were severed.

The Jews opposed God while under the law of God and that opposition amplified God's grace.

Romans 5:20
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.

That amplification of grace became so great in the rejection of the Christ by the Jews. That grace swept outwards from Israel to the surrounding nations.

Israel is the subject of nearly the entire narration of the Old Testament.

klutedavid · Nov 17, 2019

redleghunter said:
The very fact the Gentiles are grafted in means they too were foreknown. God did not just change His mind later on. Jesus even said there were other sheep He had to bring in the fold.

John 10: NASB

16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

That is a distortion of the text.

Has God rejected those He foreknew?

You must answer this question.

How could God reject the Gentiles having not previously having anything to do with them?

Other sheep are the sheep that were not the chosen nation. Israel was the natural olive tree. The Gentiles were the wild olive tree. The text means what it says.

'Grafted in' means exactly what it says.

Even the dogs eat from the masters table.

Jew first then Gentile second.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
The text does not say that the Gentiles were foreknown by God. The Old Testament declares that the nation of Israel was those people that were foreknown, the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Not the Gentiles, the Gentiles were foreign to the covenant that God established with Israel.

The Gentiles were uncircumcised, not under the law, God never inhabited any Gentile temple. The Gentiles were dogs, filthy sinners, the Gentiles never knew God. Jesus was not a Gentile and Jesus was sent only to the Jews.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”You are missing the central point here. The Jews whom were foreknown by God were grafted out, and the Gentiles were later grafted into the olive tree.

Simply because the rejection of the Christ by the Jews increased the grace of God towards the Gentiles.

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

The definition of Gentile means not chosen, non elect, not formerly known by God, not Jewish.

Gentiles were unnatural branches that had to be grafted in and the Jews, the natural cultivated branches were severed.

The Jews opposed God while under the law of God and that opposition amplified God's grace.

Romans 5:20
The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more.

That amplification of grace became so great in the rejection of the Christ by the Jews. That grace swept outwards from Israel to the surrounding nations.

Israel is the subject of nearly the entire narration of the Old Testament.

Yes the center of the universe is on Israel. That is clear.

I already offered that God chooses people and groups. How you conclude that only Hebrews are chosen for God’s will and purpose is quite odd when the Epistle to the Ephesians is to a Gentile audience and the strongest language of predestination is given in the first chapter.

redleghunter · Nov 17, 2019

klutedavid said:
That is a distortion of the text.

Has God rejected those He foreknew?

You must answer this question.

Why? You have created a false premise. Paul is addressing both Jews and Gentiles in Romans. What I quoted proves this.

Another thread on predestination (Eph 1)

Is predestination done through God's foreknowledge?

Yes

No

Other

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