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Another thing I don't understand about the creationist position...

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Hans Blaster

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GAP is based on a series of sermons that got published. There is not much to it and very little effort went into it. But it is an attempt at reconciliation. Dispensationalism has a lot more support.
Theology is *NOT* science. Nor are sermons. (There is a "christians only" evolution board on this site if you want to discuss the theology of creation, but here the focus is on the science.)
I forgot to add Theistic evolution. Which like GAP has support, but not much effort has gone into Theistic Evolution to develop it. Frances Collins did write a few books, but I find his effort to be somewhat of a "train wreck" attempt at trying to make money selling popular books.
Theistic evolution is just a mess. Sticking random divine interventions where ever it seems convenient (or rather where the actual science is theologically inconvenient.) I never gave much thought to it.
 
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trophy33

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it seems you misunderstand Catholicism and dogma.
The Vatican in a public source that produces a catechism of what it believes, and a magisterium that decides it.

For those who don’t agree the door is not locked.
On such as abortion it has held fast.
You just described the process how it works to make the Roman Catholic teachings public. Other churches have their processes.
 
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trophy33

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Theistic evolution is just a mess. Sticking random divine interventions where ever it seems convenient (or rather where the actual science is theologically inconvenient.) I never gave much thought to it.

I see theistic evolution as a higher system for evolution - evolution is purely a mechanism and theistic means that the mechanism was prepared/designed by God to produce the outcome He wanted.

I do not think it means that biological evolution needed to have some special divine interventions against its mechanism. In its basics it just means it has a purpose.
 
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Mountainmike

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You just described the process how it works to make the Roman Catholic teachings public. Other churches have their processes.
this doesn’t belong on a science thread but I will answer once,

Other churches don’t publish a detailed catechism.
The things you must accept to be Catholic have not changed.
Catholicism does it because it is the only church which is sure enough of what it believes.

But you will find very I’ll informed professional nit pickers like frank robert trying to pretend it changed stance on abortion ( as example) , His apologetics is as bad as his science. Aborton is and was a mortal sin, even from the first tines, The words used to describe it may change, the understanding evolves, but the meaning has not. Abortion is wrong. So nitpickers attack words.

As for others? Take what does Anglicanism stand for now? it’s hard to say.

Even on basics like Eucharist. it is part of why I left.

If I look across Protestantism, since the reformation I I can perm any combination:
( 5 or more flavours in each category )
From the meaning, applicability and process of baptism
From the meaning, applicability and process of eucharist
The necessity , role and need for succession in priesthood.
Etc etc etc
The necessity, meaning and role of the church,
The process for determining the meaning of scripture, the role and veracity of councill decisions
On once saved always saved, saved but can lose it, or not saved till just judge speaks.
on predestination single or double,
On remarriage, divorce , the method , meaning and restrictions,
On purgation, purgatory or how unclean things can enter heaven
And any flavour you like on a myriad of moral issues.
On end times,
Some pentecostalists don’t even believe in the trinity!
et etc.

As Luther observed, the result of empowering all to interpret scripture was “every Mikmaid now has their own doctrine”

Worst of all several flavours exist in the same church,
how? .When there is but one truth.
And in most of them, if you don’t like the current flavour invent your own. A schism.
It’s how the presbyterians got nick named the split P! The elders make it up as they go along.

Yet if we go back to scripture we see the process Jesus gave.

He didn’t give us a book, he gave apostles to hand down the truth the meaning of “ tradition”. Paradosis.
He gave them the power to “ bind and loose” jointly, and also to Peter alone To give definitive statement on meaning. He did not give that power to all.
He gave The power of apostolic succession , and that the church ( physical, ie household of God ) was then claimed as the “ foundation of truth” ( notice it says church not scripture)

. All christians owe a gratitude to the one church which in council chose the New Testament , without which no christian could trust ithe bible. Until Luther stripped it down and tried to modify it too! Such was his temerity, he tried to edit the bible to make it say what he believed instead!

Anyway this is a science forum. So on apologetics I will leave it there.
 
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Mountainmike

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Theology is *NOT* science. Nor are sermons. (There is a "christians only" evolution board on this site if you want to discuss the theology of creation, but here the focus is on the science.)

Theistic evolution is just a mess. Sticking random divine interventions where ever it seems convenient (or rather where the actual science is theologically inconvenient.) I never gave much thought to it.
Scientific evolution is a mess.

I pointed out on my thread that from abiogenesis up to modern day cell structure is a complete void Of understanding or information. That is a big proportion of the supposed evolutionary pathway.
Can you give me a single fact on it? The development of the genome? Try answering the questions on my thread.

Take a simple question. What was the first genome, and has that changed Along the path?

Which is the sad lament and exact same question of a palaeontologist at a conference on the assumed tree of life In later life families. he asked the very same question - he challenged a conference to give him a single fact on it!

Evolution is not a done deal. .
Which is scientifically inconvenient.

Ie Belief that a natural process from abiogenesis to evolution, accounts for life, is just that. A belief, justified by pseudoscientific statements running way ahead of evidence.


It might even be true.
But you cannot conclude that from present science.
“ don’t know for sure but I think…. “is the honest answer to most questions on it.
Another way of saying “ I believe “
 
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Bradskii

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Scientific evolution is a mess.

I pointed out on my thread that from abiogenesis up to modern day cell structure is a complete void.
wgich is a big proportion of the supposed evolutionary pathway.
Can you give me a single fact on it?
Which is the sad lament and exact same question of a paleontokogist at a conference on the assumed tree of life.
he asked the same question!!
Evolution is not a done deal. . Which is scientifically inconvenient.

Belief that a natural process from abiogenesis to evolution, accounts for life, is just that. A belief, justified by pseudoscientific statements running way ahead of evidence.

So give us your alternative. With evidence, of course.
 
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Diamond72

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Theistic evolution is just a mess.
Evolution is a mess. Little more than a Hodge podge of assorted guesses and opinions with very little substance and very little science to back most of it up. People have evidence, but that does not mean science understands the evidence. Just like we have a Bible and people do not seem to understand the Bible.
 
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Diamond72

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I think we're done...
We are if you do not realize how bad of a job they do to interpret what they call evidence. This is why science has a half-life of 50 years. Some studies show that the half-life of scientific knowledge is actually shorter than 50 years.

This does not even take into account the subject of funding and that often lies are considered to be fact. Like the idea, we only use 10% of the brain. Although in this case that may be true. There is a lot of bait and switch going on. Along with outright fraud. There is a significant amount of insurance fraud.

Science is big business and people want to stuff their pockets with all the lucrative loot. Right here on this board people are attacking bots and AI which is WHAT? Science. So people need to make up their mind if science is good or bad. Because most everything in life is neutral and we make the choice to use or abuse.

If my bias conflicts with your bias that is pretty much business and usual.
 
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Diamond72

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Except when you truly believe that you have been guided by God.
We have a Bible that we believe represents God. We have science and scientific method that shows the Bible to be accurate and true to the ability science can show anything to be true. No one has ever shown me any science that disproves the Bible in any way. Although they are pretty good at building straw men and disproving themselves.
 
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trophy33

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We have a Bible that we believe represents God. We have science and scientific method that shows the Bible to be accurate and true to the ability science can show anything to be true. No one has ever shown me any science that disproves the Bible in any way. Although they are pretty good at building straw men and disproving themselves.

For example anatomy. Kidneys are used as a place of conscience, moral judgement and feelings in the Bible, while we know that those things happen in brain, today.
 
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Mountainmike

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So give us your alternative. With evidence, of course.
I just have an alternative belief to yours.
At a scientific level just like you , I dont know.
And that is the best science can say.

There is evidence of created cells in our time. Study it.
 
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trophy33

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this doesn’t belong on a science thread but I will answer once,

Other churches don’t publish a detailed catechism.
The things you must accept to be Catholic have not changed.
Catholicism does it because it is the only church which is sure enough of what it believes.

But you will find very I’ll informed professional nit pickers like frank robert trying to pretend it changed stance on abortion ( as example) , His apologetics is as bad as his science. Aborton is and was a mortal sin, even from the first tines, The words used to describe it may change, the understanding evolves, but the meaning has not. Abortion is wrong. So nitpickers attack words.

As for others? Take what does Anglicanism stand for now? it’s hard to say.

Even on basics like Eucharist. it is part of why I left.

If I look across Protestantism, since the reformation I I can perm any combination:
( 5 or more flavours in each category )
From the meaning, applicability and process of baptism
From the meaning, applicability and process of eucharist
The necessity , role and need for succession in priesthood.
Etc etc etc
The necessity, meaning and role of the church,
The process for determining the meaning of scripture, the role and veracity of councill decisions
On once saved always saved, saved but can lose it, or not saved till just judge speaks.
on predestination single or double,
On remarriage, divorce , the method , meaning and restrictions,
On purgation, purgatory or how unclean things can enter heaven
And any flavour you like on a myriad of moral issues.
On end times,
Some pentecostalists don’t even believe in the trinity!
et etc.

As Luther observed, the result of empowering all to interpret scripture was “every Mikmaid now has their own doctrine”

Worst of all several flavours exist in the same church,
how? .When there is but one truth.
And in most of them, if you don’t like the current flavour invent your own. A schism.
It’s how the presbyterians got nick named the split P! The elders make it up as they go along.

Yet if we go back to scripture we see the process Jesus gave.

He didn’t give us a book, he gave apostles to hand down the truth the meaning of “ tradition”. Paradosis.
He gave them the power to “ bind and loose” jointly, and also to Peter alone To give definitive statement on meaning. He did not give that power to all.
He gave The power of apostolic succession , and that the church ( physical, ie household of God ) was then claimed as the “ foundation of truth” ( notice it says church not scripture)

. All christians owe a gratitude to the one church which in council chose the New Testament , without which no christian could trust ithe bible. Until Luther stripped it down and tried to modify it too! Such was his temerity, he tried to edit the bible to make it say what he believed instead!

Anyway this is a science forum. So on apologetics I will leave it there.

Both authoritarianism and freedom have their advantages and disadvantages. There is more freedom and therefore more opinions and more chaos in protestantism. There is more authoritarianism and therefore more stable public teaching in catholicism.
 
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Diamond72

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For example anatomy. Kidneys are used as a place of conscience, moral judgement and feelings in the Bible, while we know that those things happen in brain, today.
Hormones are released in the brain, but they affect the organs. We love people with the heart, but what does the heart have to do with it?

The vagus nerve, also known as the tenth cranial nerve, is a long nerve that runs from the brainstem to the abdomen. It is one of the most important nerves in the body, playing a critical role in regulating many bodily functions, including digestion, heart rate, and respiratory rate.

The vagus nerve is responsible for carrying information in both directions between the brain and the internal organs. It sends signals from the brain to the organs to control their functions and receives feedback from the organs to provide information to the brain about their status.
 
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Mountainmike

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Both authoritarianism and freedom have their advantages and disadvantages. There is more freedom and therefore more opinions and more chaos in protestantism. There is more authoritarianism and therefore more stable public teaching in catholicism.
True. But In the end there is only one truth.
The only question is who has it.

Since in my list there are at least 5 different mutually exclusive beliefs on eg Eucharist and at least ten other areas of critical doctrine including baptism by definition almost all do not have the truth.

The Eucharist either is or isn’t the real “body and blood “, valid only if performed by a priest in succession ( ignatius / polycarp disciples of John) which if profaned the some become “ sick, some have died” (according to Paul) and only if “ you eat this bread“ you have life ( using the word for gnaw, not consume) and will Jesus “ raise you up at the last day “ according to Jesus in John. . If it’s only a symbol how can it be profaned?

Is or isn’t.
No middle ground. No room for opinion.
The earliest Christians believed it, which is why the romans called them cannibals.
It Was handed down from first disciples of apostles. Read ignatius letter to smyrneans

No room for protestant differences of opinion.
The lack of coherence on the Eucharist in the Anglican communion which for me at least said the Anglican Church cannot be the true church. Although I respect greatly many I met there.


And there’s the thing - the science of recent so called eucharistic miracles - found recently living human blood & human heart tissue. so Not a symbol!

Anyway… interesting though the discussion is this isn’t the place for apologetics .

I was simply pointing out on one narrow issue that on basic moral questions like abortion, Catholicism has never changed view that it is a mortal sin. Others have yielded to populist pressure.
 
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Frank Robert

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We have a Bible that we believe represents God.
Yes you do. No argument there.
We have science and scientific method that shows the Bible to be accurate and true to the ability science can show anything to be true.
You do not have science or a scientific method. What you have is belief in a specific religion or religious denomination. There are more than 45,000 christian denominations all with varying interpretations of the bible and science.
No one has ever shown me any science that disproves the Bible in any way. Although they are pretty good at building straw men and disproving themselves.
Science is not in the business of disproving a book written by nomadic desert tribe that has origins in the ancient religion of Judaism or any other religion.

Neither is science concerned with the New Testament because it is religion. It appears that creationists refuse to accept the difference between science that is based on the evidence and the scientific method and religion that is based on faith.
 
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Frank Robert

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Evolution is a mess. Little more than a Hodge podge of assorted guesses and opinions with very little substance and very little science to back most of it up. People have evidence, but that does not mean science understands the evidence. Just like we have a Bible and people do not seem to understand the Bible.
Are you suggesting that ~97% of scientists fell for a "hodge podge of assorted guesses and opinions with very little substance?"
Nearly all (around 97%) of the scientific community accepts evolution as the dominant scientific theory of biological diversity, with 87% accepting that evolution occurs due to natural processes, such as natural selections Scientific associations have strongly rebutted and refuted the challenges to evolution proposed by intelligent design proponents.
Source...
 
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Diamond72

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Are you suggesting that ~97% of scientists fell for a "hodge podge of assorted guesses and opinions with very little substance?"
They are the "hodge podge of assorted guesses and opinions with very little substance?"
 
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Frank Robert

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They are the "hodge podge of assorted guesses and opinions with very little substance?"
You are making utterly ridiculous claims w/o an iota of evidence and zero support outside of creationists circles. You are entitled to your whatever you believe but you should not expect anyone who has had a high school course in biology to agree with you.
 
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Mountainmike

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They are the "hodge podge of assorted guesses and opinions with very little substance?"
We really are wasting our time diamond

Why do non scientists think they can speak for sciece?
Frank seems to think that truth is a democracy “ 87% accepting evolution occurs due to natural processes “
It doesn’t matter what they think, the ones who fell for Maddoff were clever too.
What matters is what is true.

(By way of comparison At the time of newton people were ridiculed by scientists for thinking light was not a particle! then scientists all changed to thinking it was a wave, just as the people they ridiculed had said,
Which also proves science has a bad grasp of philosophy as well. Since light “IS”
neither.)

Nor does it say what Frank thinks it says, it says natural processes.
By Which he means observed proceses of whatever cause.

it’s true.
Most crops, garden plants, domestic animals and livestock were product of just those so called natural processes in all of those cases guided by intelligent design by Man!

” intelligent design” and “ evolution by natural process” are not mutually exclusive. Nor is intelligent design visible in the product .

Nor does it say what Frank hopes it means. That life is a product of abiogenesis followed by natural process, since as I pointed out on my thread the evolution from first cells to present complexity is a complete unknown.

All it takes is a decent IQ to rip that post containing” 87% accept” to shreds.
What he means is 87% believe!
 
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trophy33

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Hormones are released in the brain, but they affect the organs. We love people with the heart, but what does the heart have to do with it?

The vagus nerve, also known as the tenth cranial nerve, is a long nerve that runs from the brainstem to the abdomen. It is one of the most important nerves in the body, playing a critical role in regulating many bodily functions, including digestion, heart rate, and respiratory rate.

The vagus nerve is responsible for carrying information in both directions between the brain and the internal organs. It sends signals from the brain to the organs to control their functions and receives feedback from the organs to provide information to the brain about their status.
Irrelevant to my post.

People in the Old Testament positioned kidneys as the center of our consciousness, moral decision making, thoughts etc. Its scientifically wrong.

It changes nothing regarding the theological message, of course. But it debunks scientific literalism some American Christians incline to read into the Bible.
 
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