Another "the tragic results of thread"

[Meshavrischika]

OK well then, it's your baby.
If this is a metaphor, then do explain: what is Lazarus' finger a metaphor for?

IDK until I research it more, but I'd venture to say it's likely a representation of the Living water.

I do think that the question posed above is a vaild one if you would like to take it literally though: did their physical bodies interact with abraham

 

[Meshavrischika]

You do not trust Jesus on the matter? This is gold, pure gold.

I trust that the Holy Spirt (the Teacher that would be sent to give us everything we needed) will teach those who ask. I bet RDN does too.

 

[Soul Searcher]

OK well then, it's your baby.
If this is a metaphor, then do explain: what is Lazarus' finger a metaphor for?

If the rich mans body was being tormented in fire why would he ask for a drop of water to cool his tongue? It would not be his tongue in distress now would it?

 

[Meshavrischika]

If the rich mans body was being tormented in fire why would he ask for a drop of water to cool his tongue? It would not be his tongue in distress now would it?

maybe Jesus thought it would be offensive to say "a drop of water to cool his butt" - lol

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

I clearly said I DO TRUST JESUS but hey, if words have to be put in my mouth to discuss this, so be it. Others can see a false claim about me was made so i trust the principle of integrity they will not jump on that busted wheel bandwagon.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Elsan, i knew Ezekiel was OT but planned on making the response it's irrelevent because it is the OT according to Heb 8. Didnt even need to get into why that passage was out of context for what we were discussing about original sin.

 

[KarateCowboy]

I clearly said I DO TRUST JESUS but hey, if words have to be put in my mouth to discuss this, so be it. Others can see a false claim about me was made so i trust the principle of integrity they will not jump on that busted wheel bandwagon.

My mistake. I misread.

Anyway, I can see this is degenerating to throwing glib remarks and making jest at serious points.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Yes, i use humorous sarcasm. That in no way can be used to dodge the presented questions. Thanks for admitting the misread, means a lot

 

[cantata]

Perhaps we should leave the bickering outside and just be nice to each other in this thread.

 

[KarateCowboy]

Alrighty. I still believe Hell is a place more than an emotion or something like that. The reason why is because there are numerous places in the Bible where it is described as a place that has fire.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

An emotion is a human characteristic and iam not sure if it applies to souls. As for the fire reference, well, considering the time frame it was penned it makes perfect sense. What is the physical/emotional reaction when we get really embarrassed, say something we shouldnt have, or did an action later proven to be very bad or wrong? In every case the element of heat is present. Ie-face gets red from embarrassment, our conscience feels sparked by the 'fire' of conviction.

 

[Beanieboy]

MORE ROB BELL. Seriously, he covers it very well.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R3bwlMOZNDo

I have renewed faith when I see Christians (like Rob Bell, the OP, etc.) making this point.

They seem to understand that the reason that people aren't stopping for the pamphlet or listening to the man is not because the world is evil, or that they have hard hearts, but because the man isn't a good witness.

One would think you would figure that out simply by praying to God and listening to the Holy Spirit, but if you think you have to win over "the enemy" and think that you can talk, but refused to listen, you probably can't hear God either.

Many posters here will talk of how Jesus was harsh, quoting passages where he spoke to the Pharisees. The Pharisees? Really? The people in the temples that preached the Scripture, and were thought of as holy by the people of the towns?

Jesus wasn't standing on a street corner, telling the tax collectors that they were theives, and telling the prostitutes that they were going to burn in hell. He loved them. He ate with the "sinners," and if he was eating with them, I assume that he just talked to them as any friend would, not simply preach to them, then want nothing to do with them. They were drawn to him. So if people are repelled by you, it's not the lame excuse that is usually used ("many people rejected Jesus too!) but it might be that you are a bad witness. You may be lacking in love. You may have no love in your approach.

 

[Meshavrischika]

I have renewed faith when I see Christians (like Rob Bell, the OP, etc.) making this point.

They seem to understand that the reason that people aren't stopping for the pamphlet or listening to the man is not because the world is evil, or that they have hard hearts, but because the man isn't a good witness.

One would think you would figure that out simply by praying to God and listening to the Holy Spirit, but if you think you have to win over "the enemy" and think that you can talk, but refused to listen, you probably can't hear God either.

Many posters here will talk of how Jesus was harsh, quoting passages where he spoke to the Pharisees. The Pharisees? Really? The people in the temples that preached the Scripture, and were thought of as holy by the people of the towns?

Jesus wasn't standing on a street corner, telling the tax collectors that they were theives, and telling the prostitutes that they were going to burn in hell. He loved them. He ate with the "sinners," and if he was eating with them, I assume that he just talked to them as any friend would, not simply preach to them, then want nothing to do with them. They were drawn to him. So if people are repelled by you, it's not the lame excuse that is usually used ("many people rejected Jesus too!) but it might be that you are a bad witness. You may be lacking in love. You may have no love in your approach.

If someone came up to you in rags and said they were an Armani suit salesman you wouldn't want to buy. Same for Christians. We're "selling" some great stuff. We should try wearing it once in a while.

 

[Beanieboy]

I also think that you can't hold up a rag and claim it to be an Armani suit.

If I came up to you, and said, "You should become Muslim, because you will then love and serve Allah, and bow down to him, and he will bless you.

If you choose not to serve him, he will send you to hell where you shall be tortured so terrible that you will pray for death and it will not come."

This version of Jesus is closer to Sadam Hussein. It isn't a God of Love, but a God of dictatorship that commands you to love him, and if you don't, will send you to eternal torture.

Is it any wonder why the listener keeps walking?
Who would want to serve such an ogre of a God?

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

That is a big part of what burns my noodlewags. Jesus SPECIFICALLY addressed the issue of what should we do if peeps dont want to hear the message. He said shake the dust off the sandals and he didnt mean trade them in for a pair of old school steel tipped golf shoes, place deadly poison on the tips, then knock people down and jump on their faces as if trying to put out a fire. I remember the big reason i never listened to Christians is because of the loveless glass gavels that got beat more often than the Clevelan Browns.

 

[Beanieboy]

I have even had more than a number of Christians say, "Well, fine! Don't believe what I preach. I'm shaking the dust off my sandals and going on my way! Have a nice life!!!"

It's like I have personally insulted them by not accepting Jesus. I don't know why a Christian would get angry. It's really none of their business to begin with. One poster said that I made her angry, because I still don't believe. I said that i didn't believe in her god, not in "God". Her god caused her to be rude, to talk only about revenge and wrath and anger, and ignore any kind of gentleness, humility, patience, etc., that are fruit of the Spirit. This, of course, angered her more, so she would quote OT that said that she would bathe in my blood:
Psalm 58:10
The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

Alright, Carrie.

And then she scratches her head about why I don't want to serve her god.
The thing that makes many people like her blow a gasket is when you remind them that they are not God, and will not be the one sitting on the throne in judgement. I think that is the most telling.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

The reason is simple insecurity. Some peeps need safety in numbers and they find each other on a co-dependency wave length. The unspoken bond is 'If iam wrong I wont be alone.' Thus, the perceived personal insult was more of the manifestion of low self esteem acting out through narcissism. Peeps secure in their faith dont make others feel rejected for not jiving and they sure dont get angry.

 

[Verv]

I was thinking this morning...

If someone does not believe in hell, how are you going to "scare them straight" by telling them they're going there? lol. It just doesn't make sense.

Interestingly enough, St. Augustine once noted that people who simply love God for fearing hell are doing the wrong thing and actually jeopardize their soul.

You'll notice the majority of Christians love God and it is their love of God that saves them; not their fear o fhell or hatred of Satan. That merely comes with the territory.

The primary motivator in all that we do must be loving God.

The Bible is chalk full of references to loving God and loving your neighbor even more than fearing hell.


Do not fear hell just to go to heaven, just love God.

We do not scare people to our side -- we show them a brighter way to be, and a great relationship with God that we can have.