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Another take at TE, trying to do justice to imputation

dknoonan

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Here is my take on TE, presented as a set of assumptions then assertions. Feedback welcome.

Assumptions
a) the Bible is inerrant
b) The human genome is continuous with prior life on earth, and contains the marks of descent from earlier life forms (e.g. we are of common descent with the rest of earth's species}.

Assertions
1. Adam was a real person. Paul is making a case for imputation of Christ's righteousness. He gives as precedence Adam's sin being imputed to the human race. If there were no actual case of imputation regarding Adam, then Paul's illustration would have been of no benefit. For imputation to have actually happened, there must be a real person from whom sin is imputed, e.g. Adam.

2. The results of this imputation include at least physical death. Paul is illustrating from the facts known to all men when he says "death reigned from Adam until Moses." (Rom 5) Physical death, not spiritual, is apparent to all.

3. Full humans have eternal human spirits, unlike the rest of the creatures on earth (a basic Christian doctrine).

4. Adam had the first eternal spirit (I Cor. 15), and as such is the first to be made in the image of God. If eternal human spirits did not exist, and finally did, then there must have been a first. Adam is the best choice, of course.

5. Adam was selected from a group of anatomical humans that were subject to physical death, and did not have eternal spirits. (I would think most TEs would hold this) It is difficult to fathom what they must have been like -- intelligent, self-conscious, able to hold a conversation, but without that spark of the Divine (image of God). Perhaps Balaam's donkey (Num 22) can serve as an example of such a condition. It would not do justice to the narrative to hold that God simply gave the donkey a human voice. Self-consciousness seems evident in this non-eternal creature. This is an odd thing to consider, but we will have to consider matters like this soon enough. Surely the day is not far off when some godless person will grow a human brain and place it in a robot, or in the body of a different animal. Imago Dei is a gift, not the natural right of an intelligent life form.

And what if the pre-Adamites decided to be cruel? Wouldn't such call for eternal consequences, and require an eternal spirit? Non necessarily. The neuronal activity might look similar to ours, when we sin. But our neuronal activities are linked to our human spirit, which guarantees our eternal culpability if not pardoned. Neurons firing apart from the spirit are of no more significance than a wolf killing a whole flock of sheep. Or a computer with a lot of memory and CPU that may someday analyze its environment and decide to fire a weapon. If sin is not counted where there is no law, how much more is it not imputed when there is no spirit! There is no spirit for the Spirit to contend with, as He does in Gen 6.

6. Adam's spirit was in a state of perfection, e.g. innocence. Adam's body and DNA, however, were identical or similar to the anatomical humans from which he was drawn. As such, it was not immortal, but subject to death, given the passage of enough time. He had not eaten of the tree of life.

7. Adam's continued obedience at some point would have been rewarded by immortality in a state of innocence, for himself and his posterity. At this time God would have revamped his body, and his DNA, to be perfect, and not subject to physical death. His spirit would have been confirmed in righteousness, and unable to sin, like those in heaven now.

8. He failed the test. Therefore God allow his spirit to be corrupted. Instead of revamping Adam's body, He leaves it alone, meaning it would die like the anatomical humans from which he was selected.

9. All humans in the modern era have corrupt, eternal spirits. Now, what happened to the anatomical humans from which Adam came? I have three alternatives to suggest. 1) They were instantaneously given corrupt souls, as imputed from Adam, their representative. 2) They remained without a human spirit. But the following generation, that is, every human conceived after that time, was born with a corrupt spirit, by reason of imputation. 3) They and their children remained without a human spirit. Their descendents fizzled out, or, if they interbred with Adam's descendents, the resulting offspring inherited a corrupt spirit from Adam's side of the family.


These are certainly important matters. The Church took awhile to adjust to a heliocentric understanding. But they were much faster than we, whose task it is to adjust to the truth of evolution. It is now 50 years since Henry Morris published The Genesis Flood, and the Church shows no signs of shaking off the young-earth error any time soon. Meanwhile, the gospel, presented in the same breath as a 10,000 year-old young earth, seems irrelevant to an increasingly educated and information-rich civilization. The sin of the church in our generation has surely been to transgress this commandment: "You shall not set a stumbling block before the blind." Lev 19:14. May the next generation remove the block we have positioned before a world blindly groping, hands outstretched.
 

hedrick

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The problem with imputation is that that's not what Paul's comparison says. For Paul we are Christ's people because we are spiritually united with him. We aren't physically descended from Christ. So it makes sense for the parallel to say that we are Adam's spiritual children because like him we sin (Rom 5:12 "because all have sinned").

Paul does not say that Adam's sin is imputed to us, but that he is the first sinner and so death came to humanity through him.

The reason this matters is that it's very unlikely that there was a literal Adam. If being Adam's children occurs because we follow him in sin, a symbolic Adam isn't a problem. However if Adam's sin is imputed to us, a literal Adam seems to be required.

Note that imputation of Adam's sin is not a universal Christian doctrine. As I recall, Calvin denies it.
 
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Papias

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dknoonan wrote:

Here is my take on TE, presented as a set of assumptions then assertions. Feedback welcome.

Assumptions
a) the Bible is inerrant
b) The human genome is continuous with prior life on earth, and contains the marks of descent from earlier life forms (e.g. we are of common descent with the rest of earth's species}.

Very good! It all works great!

Some thoughts:

The Church took awhile to adjust to a heliocentric understanding. But they were much faster than we, whose task it is to adjust to the truth of evolution. It is now 50 years since Henry Morris published The Genesis Flood, and the Church shows no signs of shaking off the young-earth error any time soon.

It should take some time. Helicentrism took 200 to 300 years for the church to accept. Copernicus published in the 1530's, Galileo was imprisoned in the 1600's, and general heliocentric books weren't allowed to be read until 1758. It wasn't until 1835 that all the heliocentric books were allowed by the church to be read by people. 50 years is nothing compared to the 200 to 300 it took the church to accept heliocentrism. The church does show signs of shaking YEC ism off, with most Christians being in churches that accept evolution (such as the huge RCC).



Meanwhile, the gospel, presented in the same breath as a 10,000 year-old young earth, seems irrelevant to an increasingly educated and information-rich civilization. The sin of the church in our generation has surely been to transgress this commandment: "You shall not set a stumbling block before the blind." Lev 19:14. May the next generation remove the block we have positioned before a world blindly groping, hands outstretched.

Very true! May our generation be forgiven!

hedrick wrote:

The reason this matters is that it's very unlikely that there was a literal Adam. If being Adam's children occurs because we follow him in sin, a symbolic Adam isn't a problem. However if Adam's sin is imputed to us, a literal Adam seems to be required.

A literal Adam can be both consistent with all science and "likely". The key is to remember how future generations can be descended from one person. Even with no population growth, a person will have 2 kids, four grandkids, 8 great grandkids, 16 GG grandkids, 32, 64, 128, 156, 512, 1024, 2028, ~4 thousand, ~8 thousand ~ 16 thousand, ~ 32 thousand, etc, quickly spreading to the whole population.

As a whole community gradually evolves from ape to human, whatever arbitrary characteristic is used to define "being human", one individual will be the first to cross that line – including a line of “God divinely creating a soul” in one. Of course, all humans will be descended from him, just as they are all descended from others as well. Think of that mayflower club, which only allows members who are descended from the few people who came over from Europe on the mayflower. That club today has thousands of members, and in a few thousand years or so, literally everyone on earth will be descended from those on the mayflower. The same holds true for an individual, so long as they have a few kids. Thus, if you have a few kids, it is very likely that in a few thousand years, literally everyone on earth will be descended from you as well. It's all a mix.

So either a symbolic Adam or a literal one still works fine. If a Christians feels that Paul requires a literal Adam, then fine. If not, fine. It seems to me that either works well.

Papias
 
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hedrick

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Keachian

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Assumptions
b) The human genome is continuous with prior life on earth, and contains the marks of descent from earlier life forms (e.g. we are of common descent with the rest of earth's species}.
In addition to Artybloke's statement I'm at odds with this one as well, it's not just an assumption but a clear and demonstrable fact that this holds true.

Assertions
1. Adam was a real person. Paul is making a case for imputation of Christ's righteousness. He gives as precedence Adam's sin being imputed to the human race. If there were no actual case of imputation regarding Adam, then Paul's illustration would have been of no benefit. For imputation to have actually happened, there must be a real person from whom sin is imputed, e.g. Adam.
Paul also talks of how all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. In my mind Paul is using Adam as an archetype of all humanity, the ideas of imputation if I'm getting my theology right are not present in pre-Christian theology, nor Christian theology till much later than Paul.

2. The results of this imputation include at least physical death. Paul is illustrating from the facts known to all men when he says "death reigned from Adam until Moses." (Rom 5) Physical death, not spiritual, is apparent to all.
Now you're stepping outside of a literal framework and imputing your own ideas onto scripture and creation, physical death has always been a part of creation, we see this in the placement of the tree of life into the Garden and we see it through the fossils found throughout the geological strata.

3. Full humans have eternal human spirits, unlike the rest of the creatures on earth (a basic Christian doctrine).
Not that I disagree with this but where do we find this in scripture.

4. Adam had the first eternal spirit (I Cor. 15), and as such is the first to be made in the image of God. If eternal human spirits did not exist, and finally did, then there must have been a first. Adam is the best choice, of course.
I'm not sure that passage talks to what you're saying. Could you go more in depth for me here?

5. Adam was selected from a group of anatomical humans that were subject to physical death, and did not have eternal spirits. (I would think most TEs would hold this) It is difficult to fathom what they must have been like -- intelligent, self-conscious, able to hold a conversation, but without that spark of the Divine (image of God). Perhaps Balaam's donkey (Num 22) can serve as an example of such a condition. It would not do justice to the narrative to hold that God simply gave the donkey a human voice. Self-consciousness seems evident in this non-eternal creature. This is an odd thing to consider, but we will have to consider matters like this soon enough. Surely the day is not far off when some godless person will grow a human brain and place it in a robot, or in the body of a different animal. Imago Dei is a gift, not the natural right of an intelligent life form.
Well actually flip-flop between possibly having a pentecost-esque spirit infusion and the spirit being this part of us which God guided into existence, the first being similar to what you're describing, the second is where I question whether other apes have these attributes.

And what if the pre-Adamites decided to be cruel? Wouldn't such call for eternal consequences, and require an eternal spirit? Non necessarily. The neuronal activity might look similar to ours, when we sin. But our neuronal activities are linked to our human spirit, which guarantees our eternal culpability if not pardoned. Neurons firing apart from the spirit are of no more significance than a wolf killing a whole flock of sheep. Or a computer with a lot of memory and CPU that may someday analyze its environment and decide to fire a weapon. If sin is not counted where there is no law, how much more is it not imputed when there is no spirit! There is no spirit for the Spirit to contend with, as He does in Gen 6.
And this is part of the problem I have with a pentecost style idea of imputation, if God were to impart us with Spirit, he would do it to all of humanity, after all from a Christian perspective the spirit is a part of what makes us human. This can also lead to racism if not unchecked, how does spirit spread for instance, do both parents have to have this spirit or just one?

6. Adam's spirit was in a state of perfection, e.g. innocence. Adam's body and DNA, however, were identical or similar to the anatomical humans from which he was drawn. As such, it was not immortal, but subject to death, given the passage of enough time. He had not eaten of the tree of life.
Ah this answers some of my quibbles from earlier, but it also raises questions, you state earlier that the consequence of sin is at least physical death, so if he had eaten of all the trees except for both the tree of life and the tree of knowledge, what do you think would have happened?

7. Adam's continued obedience at some point would have been rewarded by immortality in a state of innocence, for himself and his posterity. At this time God would have revamped his body, and his DNA, to be perfect, and not subject to physical death. His spirit would have been confirmed in righteousness, and unable to sin, like those in heaven now.
Oh.

8. He failed the test. Therefore God allow his spirit to be corrupted. Instead of revamping Adam's body, He leaves it alone, meaning it would die like the anatomical humans from which he was selected.
Well no we have him cast out of the garden and denied access to the tree of life

9. All humans in the modern era have corrupt, eternal spirits. Now, what happened to the anatomical humans from which Adam came? I have three alternatives to suggest. 1) They were instantaneously given corrupt souls, as imputed from Adam, their representative. 2) They remained without a human spirit. But the following generation, that is, every human conceived after that time, was born with a corrupt spirit, by reason of imputation. 3) They and their children remained without a human spirit. Their descendents fizzled out, or, if they interbred with Adam's descendents, the resulting offspring inherited a corrupt spirit from Adam's side of the family.


These are certainly important matters. The Church took awhile to adjust to a heliocentric understanding. But they were much faster than we, whose task it is to adjust to the truth of evolution. It is now 50 years since Henry Morris published The Genesis Flood, and the Church shows no signs of shaking off the young-earth error any time soon. Meanwhile, the gospel, presented in the same breath as a 10,000 year-old young earth, seems irrelevant to an increasingly educated and information-rich civilization. The sin of the church in our generation has surely been to transgress this commandment: "You shall not set a stumbling block before the blind." Lev 19:14. May the next generation remove the block we have positioned before a world blindly groping, hands outstretched.
 
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