Another question for atheists

[Tnmusicman]

Why do I sometimes see ( it's real common on YouTube ) a Christian and an atheist in a back and forth and the atheist will be asking a question that the Christian can't answer. When Christians ask atheists about orgins of the universe and what not most will respond with something like the following:
"I don't know and neither do you"
Christians are expected to accept an "I don't know" answer from the presumably smarter and more logical atheist.
This is fine but then why can't the Christian say "I don't know"?
I was reading the comments on a reason ralley post and the bulk of the comments were ridiculing Christians for not knowing the answer to a question that AronRa was asking. Why are Christians held to a different standard than atheists on questions that don't really have definative answers? Why the ridicule of Christians ( who don't posit themselves as being logically superior ) and yet the atheist is free to say "I dunno" to any question and nobody is calling them a "joke" for not knowing all the answers. Contrary to popular belief most Christians don't claim to know ALL the answers even though our chosen spiritual beliefs may lay claim to knowledge of things. It must be remembered that just because our spiritual books may claim to have answers it certainly can't account for EVERY question asked nor can the followers be expected to know everything asked of them,especially when the questions don't have black and white answers.Any thoughts on why this happens??

 

[Darkhorse]

It's called a "double standard".

 

[dies-l]

Whenever I read questions like this, I can't help but wonder what the specific context is. As a Christian I can't say i have ever been in this predicament.

 

[Shane Roach]

It could well be the result of one's personal experience. I feel I have experienced similar double standards, though this specific one has never happened to me, and I have never seen it before.

Did you have a link to the YouTube video in question?

 

[Blayz]

Christians are expected to accept an "I don't know" answer from the presumably smarter and more logical atheist.
This is fine but then why can't the Christian say "I don't know"?

It's not an issue of us not accepting that as an answer. The issue is it's an answer they never give. Christians never say "I don't know" regards questions about origins/evolution.

Any thoughts on why this happens??

Christian hubris.

 

[Jade Margery]

Why do I sometimes see ( it's real common on YouTube ) a Christian and an atheist in a back and forth and the atheist will be asking a question that the Christian can't answer. When Christians ask atheists about orgins of the universe and what not most will respond with something like the following:
"I don't know and neither do you"
Christians are expected to accept an "I don't know" answer from the presumably smarter and more logical atheist.
This is fine but then why can't the Christian say "I don't know"?
I was reading the comments on a reason ralley post and the bulk of the comments were ridiculing Christians for not knowing the answer to a question that AronRa was asking. Why are Christians held to a different standard than atheists on questions that don't really have definative answers? Why the ridicule of Christians ( who don't posit themselves as being logically superior ) and yet the atheist is free to say "I dunno" to any question and nobody is calling them a "joke" for not knowing all the answers. Contrary to popular belief most Christians don't claim to know ALL the answers even though our chosen spiritual beliefs may lay claim to knowledge of things. It must be remembered that just because our spiritual books may claim to have answers it certainly can't account for EVERY question asked nor can the followers be expected to know everything asked of them,especially when the questions don't have black and white answers.Any thoughts on why this happens??

This is because christians put forth a positive argument about things, like 'X definitely happened' and then they are asked to support it. How do you know X happened? What is the evidence that X happened?

Atheists rarely put forth positive arguments about things they don't know. Consider the two statements.

"God created the universe."
"We don't yet know what created the universe or how."

Now, the first statement is an assertion of fact, like saying 'I bought a car' or 'That dog has rabies'. When you are asserting a fact, it is normal and expected for you to have something to back it up. I can show you the car, the title with my name on it, the bank account from which the money was taken, and introduce you to the salesman. I can show you the dog, the symptoms, the test results, and the documented history of the disease and its discovery.

Say god created the universe though, and that raises a lot of questions. How do you know that? How did it happen? Where is the evidence? What is 'god'? Who told you this? If it is a book, who wrote it? When did they write it, and what was the current state of scientific knowledge at the time? What other gods exist, and why is your god more likely to exist than other gods? What proof is there that any specific god exists?

Atheists find the offered answers to these questions unsatisfactory, as they only bring about more questions. We prefer a simple statement of honest ignorance. We don't know how it happened. We're trying to figure it out and as soon as we know something definite, we'll let everyone know. It could be awhile though, so in the meantime let's just admit there are some gaps in human knowledge and go on with our lives.

 

[Skavau]

Why do I sometimes see ( it's real common on YouTube ) a Christian and an atheist in a back and forth and the atheist will be asking a question that the Christian can't answer. When Christians ask atheists about orgins of the universe and what not most will respond with something like the following:
"I don't know and neither do you"
Christians are expected to accept an "I don't know" answer from the presumably smarter and more logical atheist.
This is fine but then why can't the Christian say "I don't know"?

Well, they can and some do but what seems to happen is that many Christians (mostly in the evangelical and fundamentalist crowd) don't say "I don't know" and yet remain suspiciously ignorant of philosophy, history, evolutionary biology, physics etc or any argument that could hypothetically lead them up to an assertive position regarding God.

How can some affirm that they know for certain that God exists when they are incapable of coming close to explaining how they know it. I'll ask you: Do you claim to not just belief, but actually know that God exists? Do you claim one thing more and also claim to know that it is the God of the Bible?

I was reading the comments on a reason ralley post and the bulk of the comments were ridiculing Christians for not knowing the answer to a question that AronRa was asking. Why are Christians held to a different standard than atheists on questions that don't really have definative answers?

Well, I'd have to know what question AronRa was asking. I suspect it was about evolution and was addressed to creationists. The point implied would be that Creationists despite their often fervent denial of evolution know very little about it.

Why the ridicule of Christians ( who don't posit themselves as being logically superior )

That depends rather on the Christian. Most don't though. I've found a significant minority of Christians present themselves as morally or emotionally superior though.

and yet the atheist is free to say "I dunno" to any question and nobody is calling them a "joke" for not knowing all the answers.

Actually I've found many William Lane Craig 'acolytes' often attempting to throw atheists into a "I dunno" situation and claiming some kind of pyyrhic victory when they see an "I don't know" response.

Indeed, many Christians seem to take the skeptical shoulder-shrugging stance of many atheists as weakness and affirm only certainty and faith as strength.

Contrary to popular belief most Christians don't claim to know ALL the answers even though our chosen spiritual beliefs may lay claim to knowledge of things.

You've unwittingly hit the nail on the head. Your core beliefs, what you believe is most important to you and presumably to the world you outright claim to know. I've seen inordinately humble Christians. I've seen Christians very thorough at self-examination and self-criticism for how they behave (frequently apologising for causing offens and frequently pointing out their penitence) and I've seen them admit ignorance on a plethora of many different topics and yet those same Christians combine this with claiming to outright know that the Bible and all its contents is true.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This is because christians put forth a positive argument about things, like 'X definitely happened' and then they are asked to support it. How do you know X happened? What is the evidence that X happened?

Atheists rarely put forth positive arguments about things they don't know. Consider the two statements.

"God created the universe."
"We don't yet know what created the universe or how."

Now, the first statement is an assertion of fact, like saying 'I bought a car' or 'That dog has rabies'. When you are asserting a fact, it is normal and expected for you to have something to back it up. I can show you the car, the title with my name on it, the bank account from which the money was taken, and introduce you to the salesman. I can show you the dog, the symptoms, the test results, and the documented history of the disease and its discovery.

Say god created the universe though, and that raises a lot of questions. How do you know that? How did it happen? Where is the evidence? What is 'god'? Who told you this? If it is a book, who wrote it? When did they write it, and what was the current state of scientific knowledge at the time? What other gods exist, and why is your god more likely to exist than other gods? What proof is there that any specific god exists?

Atheists find the offered answers to these questions unsatisfactory, as they only bring about more questions. We prefer a simple statement of honest ignorance. We don't know how it happened. We're trying to figure it out and as soon as we know something definite, we'll let everyone know. It could be awhile though, so in the meantime let's just admit there are some gaps in human knowledge and go on with our lives.

It's interesting that some theists expect that atheists must have answer to the "ultimate question" (i.e. the origin of the universe) or else atheism is unwarranted. Perhaps that's because they believe that they do have the answer, or at least, a answer, and that is better than nothing. I don't think so. If your answer is purely a theological conjecture, then why should I give it more weight than an honest "I don't know"?

 

[Non sequitur]

Because, from the get go, Christianity claims to know certain things and atheism, from the get go, does not claim to know these things.

If it's mandatory to start from a god, then get everything else, you are making (and starting with) a knowledge claim.

If you start from "Who knows, but let's try and figure it out", you have not started with a knowledge claim.

Why would you expect someone who holds a certain "title" to know about things outside that "title"?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Christians are expected to accept an "I don't know" answer from the presumably smarter and more logical atheist. This is fine but then why can't the Christian say "I don't know"?

They can! They should!

It's mainly Christian arrogance that leads them not to say "I don't know", and the reason why this is unacceptable to atheists on occasion is when a position and evidence on that subject is needed to support a Christian "I know".

There is no double-standard whatsoever. Examine the context of the issue, and you'll see that atheists are remarkably consistent in their standards of knowledge. Christians mainly mess themselves up by insisting on knowledge of certain things that they can't possibly truly know, at least by the rational standards set forth by atheists.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[quatona]

Why do I sometimes see ( it's real common on YouTube ) a Christian and an atheist in a back and forth and the atheist will be asking a question that the Christian can't answer. When Christians ask atheists about orgins of the universe and what not most will respond with something like the following:
"I don't know and neither do you"
Christians are expected to accept an "I don't know" answer from the presumably smarter and more logical atheist.
This is fine but then why can't the Christian say "I don't know"?

They are highly welcome to say "I don´t know". A lot, however, depends on at which point in the process they give this answer.
Typically, the Christian starts by claiming that "Goddidit" is an explanation for something otherwise unexplained/unexplainable, i.e. they start by claiming they do have an answer to existential questions. In the following, they present a highly complex ideological of supposedly logical chains. It´s not until it turns out there is a missing link in those chains (and a logical chain happens to be as weak as its weakest chain) that they admit "I don´t know". It´s the moment when "Godditit" turns out to be not the explanation it was claimed to be, but just a spaceholder for "I don´t know". At this point the Christian admits that they are as empty-handed when it comes to existential questions as everybody else.

Not saying that this is always so. Just saying that this is when I personally consider the "I don´t know" from a Christian as an admission of defeat.

 

[Gadarene]

I wouldn't even couch it in terms of knowledge claims.

Atheists do not claim to have an omniscient deity inspiring them. Christians do, so it is less of a viable excuse.

You can't have a double standard when the two groups are obviously operating by different ones

 

[Jade Margery]

It is a bit like handing two people a box and saying there is something inside it.

The atheist looks at the box, sees that it is too well constructed to take apart without much better tools, and decides that it is impossible to tell what is in the box.

The theist was told by his parents and people he looked up to that there is an elephant in the box. They set to arguing.

"It is too small a box to fit an elephant, and it is not heavy enough to hold an elephant, and when you shake it it doesn't make sounds like an elephant is inside it."

"Well, do you know what IS inside it?"

"No, I don't know."

"Well, I KNOW it is an elephant. I have been told so, and I believe it is true, and I know it is true in my heart. Maybe it is a very small mute feather light elephant. You don't know, but I do. Therefore, I must be right."

"..."

 

[dies-l]

I would also point out how many times I have heard Christians (especially of the fundamentalist variety) say things like "those Atheists think that they have all the answers, but they can't even explain ________." The arrogance cuts both ways -- there are arrogant Atheists who think that anyone who believes in God is an idiot. And, there are Christians who believe the same about anyone who doesn't believe in their conception of God. Likewise there are Atheists who are sincerely and compassionately working through very real doubts about God. And, there are Christians who are sincerely and compassionately trying to share with others what they believe to be true about Him.

I have found that a good rule thumb is that any thread that begins "Why do [members of x group] always __________?" is usually started by someone who is unwilling to see that the plank in their own eye is clouding their judgment about the speck in their neighbors' eyes.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I've taught my kids since they were little (and they can still recite) the intentionally ironic "Always is always wrong; never is never right."

 

[dies-l]

I've taught my kids since they were little (and they can still recite) the intentionally ironic "Always is always wrong; never is never right."

But, since the OP says "Why do atheists sometimes ________?" I would be inclined to answer, "the same reason that Christians sometimes __________": because there are people in every camp who are wrong in the way they approach logic, reason, and human decency.

 

[Tnmusicman]

It could well be the result of one's personal experience. I feel I have experienced similar double standards, though this specific one has never happened to me, and I have never seen it before.

Did you have a link to the YouTube video in question?

Sorry,it was a number of videos that I came upon when surfing youtube and I dont recall offhand exactly which videos they were. I will try to locate them,though.

 

[Tnmusicman]

It's not an issue of us not accepting that as an answer. The issue is it's an answer they never give. Christians never say "I don't know" regards questions about origins/evolution.



Christian hubris.

Im not talking specifically about evolution/origins of universe. I happened upon a video of AronRa at the reason ralley and in this video it was brought up that Christians are a joke because there are questions they cant answer.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Im not talking specifically about evolution/origins of universe. I happened upon a video of AronRa at the reason ralley and in this video it was brought up that Christians are a joke because there are questions they cant answer.

It's not that Christian's can't answer, "I don't know", it's that they very rarely do. Rather, these vocal Christians pretend as if they do have all the answers, spouting all sorts of nonsense and pseudo-science. When probed, their specious arguments inevitably fall apart like ash.

I've seen Christians on here say, "I don't know", and that's an absolutely fine answer - it's the logical default, it's the only rational thing to say when, well, we don't know.

The issue is when you get people pretending that they have all the answers, when they don't. Atheists are more likely to say "I don't know", while Christians are not, hence the observed difference.

Of course, this isn't a universal trend - some atheists act like they know everything, when in fact their arguments are baloney. All camps have those vocal idiots. Frankly, you should be applauding those people - atheist, Christian, whatever - for showing the liars for what they really are.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I would also point out how many times I have heard Christians (especially of the fundamentalist variety) say things like "those Atheists think that they have all the answers, but they can't even explain ________." The arrogance cuts both ways -- there are arrogant Atheists who think that anyone who believes in God is an idiot. And, there are Christians who believe the same about anyone who doesn't believe in their conception of God. Likewise there are Atheists who are sincerely and compassionately working through very real doubts about God. And, there are Christians who are sincerely and compassionately trying to share with others what they believe to be true about Him.

I have found that a good rule thumb is that any thread that begins "Why do [members of x group] always __________?" is usually started by someone who is unwilling to see that the plank in their own eye is clouding their judgment about the speck in their neighbors' eyes.

QFT