Another question about the Anglican Eucharist...

[Albion]

My confusion comes from you referring to the 'Catholic' understanding of a sacrament and then naming a few points that are actually NOT part of the Catholic understanding

But they are!

 

[Bonifatius]

Nope.

You say sacraments must forgive sins. The Catholic understanding says they are conveying grace, but not necessarily the forgiveness of sins (e.g. marriage and ordination do not convey forgiveness of sins).
You also seem to say that there must be a form and ceremony ordained by God in order for it to be a sacrament. While the Catholic understanding of the sacraments insists that the sacraments go back to Christ's commandments that does not mean there has to be a formal institutuion.

So let's now have a closer look at what the articles actually say:

There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel: Baptism and Eucharist.
There are five other rites commonly called Sacraments: Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction,
They are not Sacraments of the Gospel.
They have partly grown out of corrupt following of the Apostles, partly they are states of life allowed in the Scriptures.
They are not the same as Baptism and Eucharist (i.e. they are not on the same level as Sacraments of the Gospel)
Reason: Their visible sign or ceremony are not ordained by God (such as the matter and form of Baptism and Eucharist).

What follows:
Baptism and Eucharist have a special character as 'Sacraments of the Gospel' since their matter and form has been ordained by Christ.
The others may still be used and even called Sacraments (as they are commonly called) as long as their use is not marked by corruption (as has been the case in earlier times) and it is clear that their form and matter is something which has grown out of the tradition of the church, following Christ's commendment - but not ordained by Christ himself.

BTW Even the Roman church teaches that there is a kind of hiearchy in the sacraments even if they have decided to make the number of seven sacraments a quasi-Dogma.

 

[mark46]

Nope.



So let's now have a closer look at what the articles actually say:

There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel: Baptism and Eucharist.
There are five other rites commonly called Sacraments: Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and extreme Unction,
They are not Sacraments of the Gospel.
They have partly grown out of corrupt following of the Apostles, partly they are states of life allowed in the Scriptures.
They are not the same as Baptism and Eucharist (i.e. they are not on the same level as Sacraments of the Gospel)
Reason: Their visible sign or ceremony are not ordained by God (such as the matter and form of Baptism and Eucharist).

What follows:
Baptism and Eucharist have a special character as 'Sacraments of the Gospel' since their matter and form has been ordained by Christ.
The others may still be used and even called Sacraments (as they are commonly called) as long as their use is not marked by corruption (as has been the case in earlier times) and it is clear that their form and matter is something which has grown out of the tradition of the church, following Christ's commendment - but not ordained by Christ himself.

BTW Even the Roman church teaches that there is a kind of hiearchy in the sacraments even if they have decided to make the number of seven sacraments a quasi-Dogma.

The Articles have always seemed clear in this matter.

 

[Albion]

You say sacraments must forgive sins. The Catholic understanding says they are conveying grace, but not necessarily the forgiveness of sins (e.g. marriage and ordination do not convey forgiveness of sins).

They are believed to forgive sin.

You also seem to say that there must be a form and ceremony ordained by God in order for it to be a sacrament.

Christ. I said ordained by Christ Jesus.

 

[mark46]

They are believed to forgive sin.

Underlining doesn't make it so. Please provide a reference for your understanding that the sacrament of matrimony forgives our sin (or Holy Orders for that matter).

 

[Albion]

Underlining doesn't make it so.

Correct. It is so because it is so.

 

[katerinah1947]

Hi,

A sacrament is a Christian rite recognized as of particular importance and significance. There are various views on the existence and meaning of such rites.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines the sacraments as "efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions."[1] The catechism included in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer defines a sacrament as "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us, ordained by Christ himself, as a means whereby we receive the same, and a pledge to assure us thereof".

The Catholic Church[2] and Oriental Orthodoxy[3][4] teach that there are seven sacraments. The Eastern Orthodox Church also believes that there are seven major sacraments, but applies the corresponding Greek word, μυστήριον (mysterion) also to rites that in the Western tradition are called sacramentals and to other realities, such as the Church itself.[5][6] Similarly, the Catholic Church understands the word "sacrament" as referring not only to the seven sacraments considered here, but also to Christ and the Church.[7]

Most Protestant denominations identify two sacraments instituted by Christ; the Eucharist (Holy Communion) and Baptism. However some traditions avoid the word "sacrament". Reaction against the 19th-century Oxford Movement led Baptists to prefer instead the word "ordinance",[8] practices ordained by Christ to be permanently observed by the church. Anglican teaching is that "there are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord", and that "those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel".[9]

AND FURTHER:::

The Catholic Church indicates that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, though not every sacrament is necessary for every individual. The Church applies this teaching even to the sacrament of baptism, the gateway to the other sacraments. It states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[12][13] But it adds: "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments",[12] and accordingly, "since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God."[13]

In the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, "the sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions."[14]

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Albion]

Hi,

A sacrament is a Christian rite recognized as of particular importance and significance. There are various views on the existence and meaning of such rites.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines the sacraments as "efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions."[1] The catechism included in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer defines a sacrament as "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us, ordained by Christ himself, as a means whereby we receive the same, and a pledge to assure us thereof".

The Catholic Church[2] and Oriental Orthodoxy[3][4] teach that there are seven sacraments. The Eastern Orthodox Church also believes that there are seven major sacraments, but applies the corresponding Greek word, μυστήριον (mysterion) also to rites that in the Western tradition are called sacramentals and to other realities, such as the Church itself.[5][6] Similarly, the Catholic Church understands the word "sacrament" as referring not only to the seven sacraments considered here, but also to Christ and the Church.[7]

Most Protestant denominations identify two sacraments instituted by Christ; the Eucharist (Holy Communion) and Baptism. However some traditions avoid the word "sacrament". Reaction against the 19th-century Oxford Movement led Baptists to prefer instead the word "ordinance",[8] practices ordained by Christ to be permanently observed by the church. Anglican teaching is that "there are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord", and that "those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel".[9]

AND FURTHER:::

The Catholic Church indicates that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, though not every sacrament is necessary for every individual. The Church applies this teaching even to the sacrament of baptism, the gateway to the other sacraments. It states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[12][13] But it adds: "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments",[12] and accordingly, "since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God."[13]

In the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, "the sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions."[14]

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

First, the issue concerned the Catholic view, not others'

Second, how can Baptism save if it doesn't forgive sin???

 

[katerinah1947]

First, the issue concerned the Catholic view, not others'

Second, how can Baptism save if it doesn't forgive sin???

Hi,
Baptism forgives Original Sin the sin of Adam.
Looking at how the world views Sacraments is of importance for me, so that I do not become narrow minded or Nationalistic, thereby more prone to committing the sins of the Second world war, which was objectifying others, and the sins of the first world war which is My country or idea right or wrong.
Being German, you might understand how I am sensitive to those pariticular sins and their causation. My people, admittedly the most brilliant people on the planet earth apart from other brilliant poeple like those of Viet Nam, did in the last Century succumb to excissive stupidity by those two mentioned items. Each of those items, and our/my stupidity in that area allowed my people and thus me, to wage two world wars.
Thus with brilliance comes and equal amount of ignorance in other areas. I believe they said, that not even Baptism is required by all people for God, as the Sacraments do not rule God, and that Sacraments are only for those with knowledge. Thus it is knowledge of God that makes a Sacrament mandatory for any individual. And, since knowledge of God varies from individual to individual, so must the Sacramental requirements, vary the same way. It is from individual to individual.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Albion]

Hi,
Baptism forgives Original Sin the sin of Adam.

So, forgiveness of sin is part of the sacrament and we agree on that.

 

[katerinah1947]

So, forgiveness of sin is part of the sacrament and we agree on that.

Hi,

My purpose is not for us to agree nor disagree on an item. I am no club to join. Nor do I join clubs or organizations. All things to me are incidental, to my existence and choices, including God. God is in my life because of my choices, and not because I am Catholic simply. In the compex, the Catholic church sure helped me, to know God very very very well and then some.

The issue seemed to be that all Sacraments are to forgive sins. Yet, the church which you ascribe to, this is said about it, and the sacraments:

"....though not every sacrament is necessary for every individual. The Church applies this teaching even to the sacrament of baptism, the gateway to the other sacraments. .... "

That gives further support to several Godly ideas. One is we are not to force our Christian Knowledge on others. Mark 9:38-42. I am sure that is said in a mulitplicity of ways, throughout scripture. There is even a prohibition on any of us telling others that their form of worship of God is erroneous.

It seems that Baptism, now not a requirement for all people according to that article above, does indeed forgive sins. It does not seem that all Sacraments of the Catholic church are to do that. And marriage might be one, plus the church recoginizes the marriage of all other people by other means. They said the last time I asked them, that marriage is really between two people.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Albion]

Hi,

My purpose is not for us to agree nor disagree on an item. I am no club to join. Nor do I join clubs or organizations. All things to me are incidental, to my existence and choices, including God. God is in my life because of my choices, and not because I am Catholic simply. In the compex, the Catholic church sure helped me, to know God very very very well and then some.

The issue seemed to be that all Sacraments are to forgive sins. Yet, the church which you ascribe to, this is said about it, and the sacraments:

"....though not every sacrament is necessary for every individual. The Church applies this teaching even to the sacrament of baptism, the gateway to the other sacraments. .... "

??? That passage doesn't even refer to the issue of whether or not the Catholic tradition before the Reformation was that a sacrament, by definition, forgives sin.

And of course, I have to ask what church you think I "ascribe to" and where that quote comes from?

It seems that Baptism, now not a requirement for all people according to that article above, does indeed forgive sins.

Yes, it's considered to forgive sins too.

 

[Liberasit]

Hi,

A sacrament is a Christian rite recognized as of particular importance and significance. There are various views on the existence and meaning of such rites.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines the sacraments as "efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions."[1] The catechism included in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer defines a sacrament as "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us, ordained by Christ himself, as a means whereby we receive the same, and a pledge to assure us thereof".

The Catholic Church[2] and Oriental Orthodoxy[3][4] teach that there are seven sacraments. The Eastern Orthodox Church also believes that there are seven major sacraments, but applies the corresponding Greek word, μυστήριον (mysterion) also to rites that in the Western tradition are called sacramentals and to other realities, such as the Church itself.[5][6] Similarly, the Catholic Church understands the word "sacrament" as referring not only to the seven sacraments considered here, but also to Christ and the Church.[7]

Most Protestant denominations identify two sacraments instituted by Christ; the Eucharist (Holy Communion) and Baptism. However some traditions avoid the word "sacrament". Reaction against the 19th-century Oxford Movement led Baptists to prefer instead the word "ordinance",[8] practices ordained by Christ to be permanently observed by the church. Anglican teaching is that "there are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord", and that "those five commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel".[9]

AND FURTHER:::

The Catholic Church indicates that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, though not every sacrament is necessary for every individual. The Church applies this teaching even to the sacrament of baptism, the gateway to the other sacraments. It states that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament."[12][13] But it adds: "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments",[12] and accordingly, "since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God."[13]

In the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, "the sacraments are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament. They bear fruit in those who receive them with the required dispositions."[14]

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

How is the Roman Catholic Church view relevant here?

 

[katerinah1947]

How is the Roman Catholic Church view relevant here?

Hi,
I just looked at the title of the section. It is Old Catholic and Anglican. I am sorry if I am out of place here. I didn't look before responding. Also, I will assume by your statement, that I am in the wrong place, so this is also Good-bye, and another sorry. I will try and look more closely in the future.
And Albion, I say you prescribe to the Anglican Church. At least that is what your identity displays.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Albion]

Hi,
I just looked at the title of the section. It is Old Catholic and Anglican. I am sorry if I am out of place here. I didn't look before responding.

I understand completely. It's the new system. Although the wording is there, it's really easy to miss when you're scanning topics. It happens to me all the time and then I'm shocked to see that I'm in the wrong forum.

And Albion, I say you prescribe to the Anglican Church. At least that is what your identity displays.

Well yes, that's right. However, there are all sorts of Anglican Churches all over the world, and each one is apt to have its own prayerbook, Constitution, website, and so on, so that quoting from one of them doesn't automatically tell me which church it is.