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Another question about the Anglican Eucharist...

xenia

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Hello,

In the Anglican Church, is an ordained priest the only one permitted/ is able/ has the grace to effect the change of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ for the Eucharist? Or can anyone do this, for example, if a group of lay people were at a retreat or a home fellowship, could Communion be prepared by the group's leader (or anyone else) and served, as is done in some evangelical groups?

And for the priests, I am assuming the Anglicans believe in apostolic succession?

Please forgive the ignorance of my questions. I do have a purpose in asking them. :)
 

Liberasit

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Hello,

In the Anglican Church, is an ordained priest the only one permitted/ is able/ has the grace to effect the change of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ for the Eucharist? Or can anyone do this, for example, if a group of lay people were at a retreat or a home fellowship, could Communion be prepared by the group's leader (or anyone else) and served, as is done in some evangelical groups?

And for the priests, I am assuming the Anglicans believe in apostolic succession?

Please forgive the ignorance of my questions. I do have a purpose in asking them. :)
The minister is the only one permitted.

In small groups, it is common to have an agapé meal.
 
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xenia

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Thank you, that is helpful to know.

I have a friend who leads an informal house church where he serves as a pastor. He is joining the Anglican church and I was wondering if he could continue his informal "communion" which I guess he could now begin calling an Agape Meal.
 
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Bonifatius

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In my understanding an Agape Meal is not to be confused with a celebration of Holy Communion. Simple drink and food are shared (not necessarily bread and wine). The focus is on fellowship and love for one another and not on the sacrifice of Christ (i.e. Christ's body broken for us and Christ's blood shed for us). Therefore there are no words of institution.
 
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graceandpeace

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Hello,

In the Anglican Church, is an ordained priest the only one permitted/ is able/ has the grace to effect the change of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ for the Eucharist?

The priest is the only one permitted.

And for the priests, I am assuming the Anglicans believe in apostolic succession?

Yes.

Please forgive the ignorance of my questions. I do have a purpose in asking them. :)

No worries. :)
 
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Albion

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Thank you, that is helpful to know.

I have a friend who leads an informal house church where he serves as a pastor. He is joining the Anglican church and I was wondering if he could continue his informal "communion" which I guess he could now begin calling an Agape Meal.

He could. But what Liberasit has described is rare in the USA and it's not the sacrament of the Lord's Supper in any case. It's purely a fellowship activity, so no clergy of any sort are required. There is no thought that there is any consecrating of the bread and wine, changing it in any way, etc. And yes, all Anglicans believe in and have retained Apostolic Succession.
 
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PaladinValer

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Hello,

In the Anglican Church, is an ordained priest the only one permitted/ is able/ has the grace to effect the change of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ for the Eucharist?

A priest or bishop is the only person who has the grace and permission to consecrate. That's official Anglican theology.

Or can anyone do this, for example, if a group of lay people were at a retreat or a home fellowship, could Communion be prepared by the group's leader (or anyone else) and served, as is done in some evangelical groups?

While all deacons and specially-licensed laypersons have the permission to administer Holy Communion, they have no authority to consecrate. A deacon can preside at a liturgy in which Presanctified Elements (ie: bread and wine already consecrated by a priest or bishop to become the Body and Blood of Christ), but the actual Eucharistic Prayer is completely omitted; only the Lord's Prayer is recited and a Invitation to Receive is given, to which the Communion of the Faithful immediately responds.

And for the priests, I am assuming the Anglicans believe in apostolic succession?

It is our official theology; yes.

Please forgive the ignorance of my questions. I do have a purpose in asking them. :)

If we don't ask, we never learn :)
 
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xenia

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Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions.

It does not look like he will be able to call what he does an Agape Meal then, because he and his group believe they are having the Eucharist. He himself has a Reformed view of Communion, which I think he takes to mean Christ is spiritually, not physically, present in the Eucharist. He sees no reason why he can't continue with this practice.

I really want this person to succeed as an Anglican.

He has told me that Anglicanism doesn't teach/ practice what I think it does but you have answered that it does teach/ practice what I thought it did.

Well, Lord have mercy. It's early days in his Anglican journey. It will sort itself out, I hope and pray.

Thank you again,
Xenia
 
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Albion

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Thank you all for taking the time to answer my questions.

It does not look like he will be able to call what he does an Agape Meal then, because he and his group believe they are having the Eucharist. He himself has a Reformed view of Communion, which I think he takes to mean Christ is spiritually, not physically, present in the Eucharist. He sees no reason why he can't continue with this practice.

I really want this person to succeed as an Anglican.

He has told me that Anglicanism doesn't teach/ practice what I think it does but you have answered that it does teach/ practice what I thought it did.

One problem...Anglicans do believe that Christ is present in the Eucharist--in the bread and wine, that is--but only in an heavenly and spiritual way. This isn't the Reformed POV.

But neither is it the case that he can be in step with Anglicanism and conduct his own private Eucharists as a layman--and that's what you seem to be saying is his intention or desire. Agape meals are not, as you realize, considered sacraments or the equivalent of the Lord's Supper.

Well, Lord have mercy. It's early days in his Anglican journey.
Yes. He'll most likely be speaking with a number of Anglican clergy if he decides to go through with a change, and they will certainly clear up any "gray areas" or misunderstandings for him.
 
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ContraMundum

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I think we must be careful when it is said that in Anglican theology only a priest has the "grace" to consecrate. There's a danger of falling into an extreme version of sacerdotalism. While we pray that the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the purposes of the priestly office are given at ordination, the laying on of hands says "take thou authority.." etc not "receive the special grace". Almost every decent Anglican theological text book acknowledges the Priesthood of all believers but the office of exercising that priesthood resides with those endowed with authority by the Bishop. There is no special "magic" to turn bread and wine into Jesus that gets passed on to priests. That must be made perfectly clear. Only the Word of God can effect a change in any sacrament. It is not the person of the priest, but the Word of God he speaks by the authority given to him that makes a sacrament valid.
 
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Fish and Bread

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I think we must be careful when it is said that in Anglican theology only a priest has the "grace" to consecrate. There's a danger of falling into an extreme version of sacerdotalism. While we pray that the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the purposes of the priestly office are given at ordination, the laying on of hands says "take thou authority.." etc not "receive the special grace". Almost every decent Anglican theological text book acknowledges the Priesthood of all believers but the office of exercising that priesthood resides with those endowed with authority by the Bishop. There is no special "magic" to turn bread and wine into Jesus that gets passed on to priests. That must be made perfectly clear. Only the Word of God can effect a change in any sacrament. It is not the person of the priest, but the Word of God he speaks by the authority given to him that makes a sacrament valid.

Grace, by definition, is a gift of God to do that which man would be unable to do of his own volition, correct? We have Christ breathing this grace on the Apostles and the Holy Spirit coming down as tongues of fire on Pentecost in the bible, in essence consecrating them as bishops, and giving them this grace and authority, which they then pass down to others. Though having a priesthood that is neither the episcopate or the deaconate, but a third ministry that is the boundary between the two, may or may not have been around from exactly 33AD (Some would say it developed a little later when areas became two big for a bishop to personally celebration the Eucharist for every member of his flock each Sunday), the priesthood has never the less been traditionally thought of as a status that people are ordained to that creates an ontological change in them that is not solely dependent on the authority of the bishop. And I think we can back that up by looking at *practice* as well as theory.

Let's say John Smith is ordained a deacon and then a priest by Bishop Jack Doe of the fictional Roman Catholic diocese of Atlantis. If John were to later become an Episcopalian priest, the fictional Episcopal Bishop of Atlantis, Jane Smith, would not re-ordain John, which she would have to do if the priesthood was solely a derivative from the authority of the bishop. She would receive him. If he later became an Eastern Orthodox priest, they would re-vest him, but probably not re-ordain him there. There is implicitly the idea that is explicit in the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic Latin-Rite mass, and I would imagine is likely there in the Sarum Rite that was native to England and from which the Anglican orders descend, that a priest is ordained as a priest forever. You can tell a priest he is not to identify himself as a priest and does not have permission to consecrate the Eucharist, but he could still do it- ontologically, he is still a priest. This is also, by the way, why the Church of England can be said to have preserved holy orders after their split with Rome, and why Anglican groups that have split with the Episcopal Church or the Anglican Communion can be said to also still be in Apostolic Succession.

What we are talking about gets into the core of sacramental theology. Though Anglicanism sometimes divides baptism and communion from the other five sacraments, as greater and lesser sacraments, nevertheless Anglicanism recognizes seven sacraments, as the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do. One of those sacraments is holy orders. And all sacraments are means of grace.

I don't necessarily disagree with the words of the post I am responding to, I just felt like it on it's own was an incomplete picture. Actually, that Anglicans explicitly recognize holy orders as a sacrament and thus a means of grace may be a differentiation between Anglicans and most other Protestants, even the relatively Catholic and high-church Protestants like some Lutheran groups that may recognize only two sacraments and have not always preserved Apostolic Succession.
 
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Albion

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Grace, by definition, is a gift of God to do that which man would be unable to do of his own volition, correct? We have Christ breathing this grace on the Apostles and the Holy Spirit coming down as tongues of fire on Pentecost in the bible, in essence consecrating them as bishops, and giving them this grace and authority, which they then pass down to others.
That's a very uncommon interpretation of that event.

Though having a priesthood that is neither the episcopate or the deaconate, but a third ministry that is the boundary between the two, may or may not have been around from exactly 33AD (Some would say it developed a little later when areas became two big for a bishop to personally celebration the Eucharist for every member of his flock each Sunday), the priesthood has never the less been traditionally thought of as a status that people are ordained to that creates an ontological change in them that is not solely dependent on the authority of the bishop. And I think we can back that up by looking at *practice* as well as theory.
Actually, that's rather backwards. The presbyters and bishops spoken of in scripture are the same except that the council of elders in each parish did, upon occasion, choose a leader or assign one of their number to a special responsibility...voila, a bishop. The priest/presbyters later became, as they are today, the delegates of the bishop, with the deacons being the helpers of both.

Let's say John Smith is ordained a deacon and then a priest by Bishop Jack Doe of the fictional Roman Catholic diocese of Atlantis. If John were to later become an Episcopalian priest, the fictional Episcopal Bishop of Atlantis, Jane Smith, would not re-ordain John, which she would have to do if the priesthood was solely a derivative from the authority of the bishop. She would receive him.
That's only because the Episcopal Church recognized Roman Catholic orders as valid, even if the favor is not returned.

If he later became an Eastern Orthodox priest, they would re-vest him, but probably not re-ordain him there. There is implicitly the idea that is explicit in the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic Latin-Rite mass, and I would imagine is likely there in the Sarum Rite that was native to England and from which the Anglican orders descend, that a priest is ordained as a priest forever. You can tell a priest he is not to identify himself as a priest and does not have permission to consecrate the Eucharist, but he could still do it- ontologically, he is still a priest. This is also, by the way, why the Church of England can be said to have preserved holy orders after their split with Rome, and why Anglican groups that have split with the Episcopal Church or the Anglican Communion can be said to also still be in Apostolic Succession.
The main reason is that their lineage is intact. Just as with the Old Catholics and some others.

What we are talking about gets into the core of sacramental theology. Though Anglicanism sometimes divides baptism and communion from the other five sacraments, as greater and lesser sacraments, nevertheless Anglicanism recognizes seven sacraments, as the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do.
Well, some Anglican bodies do that, and others do not.

I don't necessarily disagree with the words of the post I am responding to, I just felt like it on it's own was an incomplete picture. Actually, that Anglicans explicitly recognize holy orders as a sacrament and thus a means of grace may be a differentiation between Anglicans and most other Protestants, even the relatively Catholic and high-church Protestants like some Lutheran groups that may recognize only two sacraments and have not always preserved Apostolic Succession.
But Anglicans do not, universally, recognize holy orders as a sacrament (not even a church-created one, as opposed to a sacrament of the Gospel), but the conclusion concerning Apostolic Succession is correct, which only proves that the reason is something else. :)
 
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ContraMundum

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Grace, by definition, is a gift of God to do that which man would be unable to do of his own volition, correct? We have Christ breathing this grace on the Apostles and the Holy Spirit coming down as tongues of fire on Pentecost in the bible, in essence consecrating them as bishops, and giving them this grace and authority, which they then pass down to others. Though having a priesthood that is neither the episcopate or the deaconate, but a third ministry that is the boundary between the two, may or may not have been around from exactly 33AD (Some would say it developed a little later when areas became two big for a bishop to personally celebration the Eucharist for every member of his flock each Sunday), the priesthood has never the less been traditionally thought of as a status that people are ordained to that creates an ontological change in them that is not solely dependent on the authority of the bishop. And I think we can back that up by looking at *practice* as well as theory.

Let's say John Smith is ordained a deacon and then a priest by Bishop Jack Doe of the fictional Roman Catholic diocese of Atlantis. If John were to later become an Episcopalian priest, the fictional Episcopal Bishop of Atlantis, Jane Smith, would not re-ordain John, which she would have to do if the priesthood was solely a derivative from the authority of the bishop. She would receive him. If he later became an Eastern Orthodox priest, they would re-vest him, but probably not re-ordain him there. There is implicitly the idea that is explicit in the pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic Latin-Rite mass, and I would imagine is likely there in the Sarum Rite that was native to England and from which the Anglican orders descend, that a priest is ordained as a priest forever. You can tell a priest he is not to identify himself as a priest and does not have permission to consecrate the Eucharist, but he could still do it- ontologically, he is still a priest. This is also, by the way, why the Church of England can be said to have preserved holy orders after their split with Rome, and why Anglican groups that have split with the Episcopal Church or the Anglican Communion can be said to also still be in Apostolic Succession.

What we are talking about gets into the core of sacramental theology. Though Anglicanism sometimes divides baptism and communion from the other five sacraments, as greater and lesser sacraments, nevertheless Anglicanism recognizes seven sacraments, as the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox do. One of those sacraments is holy orders. And all sacraments are means of grace.

I don't necessarily disagree with the words of the post I am responding to, I just felt like it on it's own was an incomplete picture. Actually, that Anglicans explicitly recognize holy orders as a sacrament and thus a means of grace may be a differentiation between Anglicans and most other Protestants, even the relatively Catholic and high-church Protestants like some Lutheran groups that may recognize only two sacraments and have not always preserved Apostolic Succession.

So...uh.....thanks for the lecture or whatever that's meant to be....but what's your point exactly? It really doesn't deal with what I was saying...it's more like...I dunno.....preaching?
 
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ContraMundum

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But Anglicans do not, universally, recognize holy orders as a sacrament (not even a church-created one, as opposed to a sacrament of the Gospel), but the conclusion concerning Apostolic Succession is correct, which only proves that the reason is something else. :)

Right. I was basically addressing the weird notion that God only gives grace at the hands of special "zapped" people- which is obviously nonsense and neither scriptural nor Patristic.
 
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Liberasit

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Right. I was basically addressing the weird notion that God only gives grace at the hands of special "zapped" people- which is obviously nonsense and neither scriptural nor Patristic.


To go even further, God is on record as choosing the most unlikely people to carry out his work. If he is willing to speak through a donkey, there are no limits as to whom he will chose.
 
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Albion

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To go even further, God is on record as choosing the most unlikely people to carry out his work. If he is willing to speak through a donkey, there are no limits as to whom he will chose.
I'm waiting for the case to be made that the donkey was either a priest or a prophet. :rolleyes:
 
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