Another Primitive Faith question....

[Thunderchild]

On all things necessary - Unity
On all else - Diversity
But in all things - Charity

Agreed 100% (only because more than 100% is a little difficult to achieve but)

 

[Polycarp]

As Catholics, we put our faith in our Church, in the teachings of our Church, and trust that She will not lead us astray.

What about Christ?

 

[KC Catholic]

 

Fr. Rob...sorry if I insulted you earlier in our discussion. It was bad form on my part and I let my emotions get the best of me. I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else with my comments. I have also edited my comments out as well.

 

Peace.

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Polycarp


What about Christ?

But, if we as Catholics believe that Christ leads his church through the office of Pope guided by the Holy Spirit, we are in fact following Christs teachings.

We have faith and believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church and the gates of hell have yet to prevail against it as Christ promised Peter, the keeper of the keys.

 

[Thunderchild]

KC - You have just earned a measure of esteem. **GONE**

 

[Polycarp]

KC -

My faith will rest in Christ Jesus and I do pray that he will guide and protect his Church. I do believe that the Holy Spirit will guid and protect his Church.

I also pray for unity everyday, but I believe that all of us will have to put down our "truth guns" as Wols so fondly puts it.

This does not mean giving up the Truth - but let's talk about it in the Love that Christ has asked us to give to one another.

Thunderchild -

That was un-called for - let's learn to love as Christ commands us to love.

 

[Stormy]

But, if we as Catholics believe that Christ leads his church through the office of Pope guided by the Holy Spirit, we are in fact following Christs teachings.

IMO You are following Christ's techings if Jesus said that the Pope would be infallible and that every man holding that position would be led by the Holy Spirit.

I do not find such a teaching coming from Jesus. That belief seems only rooted in the minds of man.

 

[Polycarp]

Stormy -

That is a question that should probably be discussed in another thread - I believe that there have been some good discussions on the topic in the past.

I am reading a book on papal infallibility and primacy. And I find it very intriging. This is a dificult subject - and a good one to discuss - but I think that it is off topic for this thread.

 

[Stormy]

One more note:

Christ's Church is so much more than just Catholic or Protestant.

No one should try to limit the LOVE and Grace that God shows to his people.

Jesus is here for all who believe and walk in the light of LOVE.

Peace

 

[Polycarp]

Stormy -

I will have to agree and disagree. Christ offers His love to all - but simply walking in LOVE and living a GOOD life may not be enough. We must accept Christ's gift of grace by our response of faith in Him.

 

[Stormy]

I am reading a book on papal infallibility and primacy. And I find it very intriging. This is a dificult subject - and a good one to discuss - but I think that it is off topic for this thread

Sorry. I did not bring it up... but I wished to respond when it was said to be a teaching of Jesus.

It makes no difference to me what people believe as long as they do not mis-quote my Lord.

IMO All this and that, religious beliefs are unnecessary. But maybe they serve a good purpose by allowing each of us to find a place that feels right and substains our Faith.

 

[Stormy]

I will have to agree and disagree. Christ offers His love to all - but simply walking in LOVE and living a GOOD life may not be enough. We must accept Christ's gift of grace by our response of faith in Him.

Jesus is here for all who believe and walk in the light of LOVE.


I put in bold a part of my post that you must have overlooked.

I know this to be saddly true. I spend most of my time speaking with Atheist. Some of them are so Christian in their ways. They are good and loving. That is why it breaks my heart that they will not accept the gift that God offers.

 

[Polycarp]

Stormy -

I must have read it to fast - sorry.

 

[VOW]

To Poly:

What about Christ?

The Church is the Bride of Christ. It cannot exist without Christ.

Christ is also the Head of the Church, while we comprise the Body.

If we as Catholics follow the Church, and allow the Church to teach us, to guide us, to strengthen us, it is therefore absolutely NECESSARY that we would then follow Christ.

The Church is the means by which I receive the Real Presence. If I have enough faith that the actual miracle of Transubstantiation occurs, then I should have NO PROBLEM believing in the supernatural leadership of the very Church which provides me with the Real Presence.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Polycarp]

Originally posted by VOW

If we as Catholics follow the Church, and allow the Church to teach us, to guide us, to strengthen us, it is therefore absolutely NECESSARY that we would then follow Christ.

The Church is the means by which I receive the Real Presence. If I have enough faith that the actual miracle of Transubstantiation occurs, then I should have NO PROBLEM believing in the supernatural leadership of the very Church which provides me with the Real Presence.

I would prefer to say it this way:
“My hope is in Christ. He leads me by right roads, though I know not the course. He gives me the church to feed and strengthen me, while I am on the road.”

The journey is for each of us to walk with Christ. In Christ we find unity with each other. I prefer to walk with Christ as my guide with no mediation.

On the Real Presence...
The church is the means, but Christ is the cause. The Church does not affect the act - it is a channel, through which Christ’s grace flows. The holiness of a particular instrument does not effect the grace that is given. In that a priest can error and still be the vessel of Christ's grace just as the church can error and still be vessel of Christ’s grace.

Place your trust in Christ and Christ alone. He will lead you by the right road, though you know not the course. Allow the church to function in its proper roll as a means to strengthen you on the journey.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by Polycarp
On the Real Presence...
The church is the means, but Christ is the cause. The Church does not affect the act - it is a channel, through which Christ’s grace flows. The holiness of a particular instrument does not effect the grace that is given. In that a priest can error and still be the vessel of Christ's grace just as the church can error and still be vessel of Christ’s grace.

 

Underlined emphasis mine... for a Sacrament to be valid, it must contain three things...

 

1)Proper Form

2)Proper Matter

3)Proper Intent

 

Intent is defined as "when the sacrament is administered, it must be administered in such a way as that the intention is that which the Church would do."  Ergo, the Church DOES affect the act, as it is the Church's intent which makes the sacrament a sacrament.

 

[Polycarp]

nyj -

Yes - I agree that Form/Matter/Intent must be present. Intent is very hard to measure. It is assumed that if the priest follows proper form and uses the proper matter that the intent is correct in the minimal sence. The minister could be a raving heretic and still meet minimal intent. He could deny the real presence and still meet minimal intent.

The form and matter were instituted by Christ not the Church - Ergo the Church does not affect the sacrament - it participates in it - as Christ instituted. Chirst affects the sacrament.

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by Polycarp
Intent is very hard to measure. It is assumed that if the priest follows proper form and uses the proper matter that the intent is correct in the minimal sence.

That was what I always thought, but this is unfortunately not true.  Intent is impossible to measure.  Proper form and proper matter does not have to equal proper intent on any level (as I explain below).

Originally posted by Polycarp

The minister could be a raving heretic and still meet minimal intent. He could deny the real presence and still meet minimal intent.

However, if he uses proper matter and proper form, while saying to himself "I do not wish to do that which the Church does", intent is completely lacking and a sacrament does not occur.  However, we should always assume that the priest does have proper intent (anything else is mere scrupulosity), especially when proper form and proper matter are used, but we can never know for sure.  We can just have faith in the fact that if we receive a sacrament with a willing heart that God will not deny His graces to those who seek them.

Originally posted by Polycarp
The form and matter were instituted by Christ not the Church - Ergo the Church does not affect the sacrament - it participates in it - as Christ instituted. Chirst affects the sacrament.

The Council of Trent teaches that grace is given by God when the sacrament is conferred rightly by the church. Ergo, as a Catholic, I do believe that the Church does affect the sacrament.

 

[VOW]

To Poly:

The Holy Spirit led me to the Church, through which I found Christ.

And I believe that Jesus Himself established the Church leadership, to guide the Body of Christ.

I'm a Catholic Convert. I already had the basics to Christianity, and I was looking for a home for my faith. The Holy Spirit led me to the Scripture in Matthew, where Jesus renamed Peter, and said, "Upon this Rock I will build my Church."

And that was enough for me.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Polycarp]

nyj -

However, if he uses proper matter and proper form, while saying to himself "I do not wish to do that which the Church does", intent is completely lacking and a sacrament does not occur. However, we should always assume that the priest does have proper intent (anything else is mere scrupulosity), especially when proper form and proper matter are used, but we can never know for sure. We can just have faith in the fact that if we receive a sacrament with a willing heart that God will not deny His graces to those who seek them.

emphasis is mine

So you are saying that the faith of the priest limits God's ability to give His grace.

I was never taught what you stated by any priest, bishop or seminary professor. I have never even read a book which stated what you are saying here.

The position of the Catholic church, that I have been taught is just what I have stated - that the priest's holiness or lack thereof does not change the effectivness of the sacrament.

I was taught in seminary in my class on the sacraments that proper form/matter indicated at least minimal intent and that transubstantiation happend.

Knowing that there are priest who are bitter and who remain in the church because they have no where to go bothered me - until I was taught that the priest's faith does not alter the effectivness of the sacrament - provided that the proper form and matter are used.

I do not know where you heard that - but please study further. You will find that you are quite off base from the teachings of the Church.