Another Primitive Faith question....

[jukesk9]

Could someone please let me know how many of the Councils the PEC accepts?  It is my understanding that the Eastern Orthodox Church accepts the first seven Councils so I'm wondering if the PEC does, too.  And, if the PEC doesn't accept any councils, why not?  Thanks and God bless.

 

[Fr. Rob]

Jukes,

To answer your question:

Article 21 of the Articles of Religion of the Primitive Episcopal Church:

"Of the Authority of General Councils

When they be gathered together, (forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God,) General Councils may err, and sometimes have erred, even in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture."

The PEC generally accepts the first four councils as containing materials that are in accord with the plain word of scripture. Beyond the fourth council, there can be found some good things, but the contradictions and modifications tend to grow with each passing council.

We also object to either edition of the seventh council, as they directly contradict each other.

Fr. Rob

 

[jukesk9]

Okay. Thanks.....

 

[Wolseley]

That would be Chalcedon in 451. Interesting.

The Orthodox reject all councils after Constantinople IV in 869; the mainline Protestants are leery of everything after Nicaea I in 325, and the Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants reject even that (that's where Constantine introduced all those "pagan" practices, y'know. )

Most Protestants have little use for Trent in 1545 (that's where the Deuterocanonical books were "added to the Bible", y'know ) and all those "pagan" practices were re-affirmed.

And oddly enough, there is no shortage of schismatic Catholic groups that reject one or both of Vatican I in 1869 and Vatican II in 1962.

I guess you could call it "cafeteria conciliarism"!

 

[jukesk9]

So the Old Catholics just reject everything after 1870 when Papal Infallibility was declared?

 

[Wolseley]

"Old Catholics" technically are made up of the Utrecht Holland Catholic Church, the Polish National Church in the U.S., and other small German, Austrian and Swiss sects. They reject everything after the first seven councils, along with Papal primacy, verbal confession to priests, celibacy, fast days and holy days of obligation, indulgences, veneration of saints and the Blessed Mother, relics, images, sacramentals, mixed marriages, and pilgrammages. The major impetus behind the split from the Cathoilic Church, however, came in 1870 after the bishops at the 1st Vatican Council defined Papal infallibility.

 

[jukesk9]

I'm surprised that if they accept the first seven councils that they would reject the veneration of saints and the majority of everything else you listed.

Fr. Rob,

Other than the PEC rejecting the belief in the Communion of Saints, it seems that you would be closer to the Eastern Orthodox in belief than with the Catholic Church.

 

[Fr. Rob]

Originally posted by jukesk9

Fr. Rob,
Other than the PEC rejecting the belief in the Communion of Saints, it seems that you would be closer to the Eastern Orthodox in belief than with the Catholic Church.

Jukes,

We do not reject the Communion of Saints.  We believe in it, profess it at every Eucharist. . . we just don't believe that we can pray to them. 

We belive that, at the Table, we are united to those who have gone before and those who will come in the future. 

Fr. Rob

 

[jukesk9]

If you don't believe that the Saints can and do intercede for us, then you reject the belief in the Communion of the Saints as the Catholic and Orthodox Churches profess. But aside from that, you seem very close in belief with the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Fr. Rob]

Originally posted by jukesk9
If you don't believe that the Saints can and do intercede for us, then you reject the belief in the Communion of the Saints as the Catholic and Orthodox Churches profess.

We do believe that they can intercede for us, but they intercede out of their own good-will towards us, and with no knowledge of what is going on here. General prayers for loved ones, for the Church, and for the consumation of the age, yes. Prayers for little Suzie's broken leg and skinned knee this morning, no.

Fr. Rob

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Fr. Rob
General prayers for loved ones, for the Church, and for the consumation of the age, yes. Prayers for little Suzie's broken leg and skinned knee this morning, no.

Fr. Rob

So, what...little Suzie is NOT a loved one? I see no difference between your "general" prayers and Suzies prayer.

Even Jesus told us that God knows the number of hairs on our head and knows our every need and concern. If those who have died and live in the grace of God's glory are part of that beautific vision, how could they NOT know what we are going through?

To me...Fr. Rob, you are splitting hairs. How can in one breath we say we are a mystical body of Christ, of believers but there be limits in that mystical body?

 

[VOW]

To KC:

Isn't there a verse in James where we are instructed to pray for one another? I'm with you on this one, it sure sounds like Fr Rob is splitting hairs. If our brothers and sisters in Christ who have died before us are indeed ALIVE in Christ, how can they not intercede for little Suzie's broken leg?


Peace,
~VOW

 

[Fr. Rob]

Originally posted by KC Catholic


So, what...little Suzie is NOT a loved one? I see no difference between your "general" prayers and Suzies prayer.

Even Jesus told us that God knows the number of hairs on our head and knows our every need and concern. If those who have died and live in the grace of God's glory are part of that beautific vision, how could they NOT know what we are going through?

To me...Fr. Rob, you are splitting hairs. How can in one breath we say we are a mystical body of Christ, of believers but there be limits in that mystical body?

From the early church: "We judge it improper to pray to those beings who themselves offer up prayers. For even they themselves would prefer that we should send up our requests to the God to whom they pray, rather than to send them downwards to themselves, or to apportion our power of prayer between God and them. Origen, c. 248, V. 4, Pg. 548

"We speak of Paradise, the place of divine bliss appointed to receive the spirits of the saints. There, the sanits are cut off from the knowledge of this world by that firey zone, as by a sort of enclosure." Tertullian, c. 197, V. 3, Pg 52

"It is clear that those who make prayers to the dead . . . do not act as becomes men. They will suffer punishment for their impiety and guilt. Rebelling against God, the Father of the human race, they have undertaken unforgivable rites. They have violated every sacred law." Lactantius, c. 304-313, V. 7, Pg. 67

Seems pretty clear to me.

Fr. Rob

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Fr. Rob


Seems pretty clear to me.

Fr. Rob

Is it Fr. Rob? Seems the Fathers don't quite agree with you.

<B>Hermas</B>

"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (<I>The Shepherd </I>3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).

<B>Clement of Alexandria</B>

"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (<I>Miscellanies </I>7:12 [A.D. 208]).

<B>Origen</B>

"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (<I>Prayer </I>11 [A.D. 233]).

<B>Cyprian of Carthage</B>

"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (<I>Letters </I>56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).

<B>Anonymous</B>

"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]). "Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.). "Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (<I>Rylands Papyrus </I>3 [A.D. 350]).

<B>Methodius</B>

"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (<I>Oration on Simeon and Anna </I>14 [A.D. 305]). "Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.). "And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).

<B>Cyril of Jerusalem</B>

"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (<I>Catechetical Lectures </I>23:9 [A.D. 350]).

<B>Hilary of Poitiers</B>

"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (<I>Commentary on the Psalms </I>124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).

&nbsp;<B>Ephraim the Syrian</B>

"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (<I>Commentary on Mark</I> [A.D. 370]). "Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (<I>The Fear at the End of Life </I>[A.D. 370]).

<B>The Liturgy of St. Basil</B>

"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (<I>Liturgy of St. Basil </I>[A.D. 373]).

<B>Pectorius</B> "Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (<I>Epitaph of Pectorius </I>[A.D. 375]).

<B>Gregory of Nazianz</B>

"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (<I>Orations</I> 17[24] [A.D. 380]). "Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).

<B>Gregory of Nyssa</B>

&nbsp;"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (<I>Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian</I> [A.D. 380]).

<B>J</B><B>ohn Chrysostom</B>

"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (<I>Homilies on Second Corinthians</I> 26 [A.D. 392]). "When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (<I>Orations </I>8:6 [A.D. 396]).

<B>Ambrose of Milan</B>

"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (<I>The Six Days Work</I> 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).

<B>J</B><B>erome</B>

"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (<I>Against Vigilantius</I> 6 [A.D. 406]).

<B>Augustine</B>

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (<I>Against Faustus the Manichean</I> [A.D. 400]). "There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (<I>Sermons </I>159:1 [A.D. 411]). "At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (<I>Homilies on John </I>84 [A.D. 416]). "Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (<I>The City of God </I>20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

 

[Fr. Rob]

KC-

Quoting thousands of quotes on the topic does not change the fact that three people explicitly quote against it.

That leaves us with one of thee choices.

1. Pray to the saints because the majority of quoted texts seem to support it.

2. Admit that there is the possibility that some did pray and some did not, and that it is best left to every man's conscience.

3. Admit that even the first quotation against the practice casts reasonable doubt on the whole issue, and that it is better to avoid it altogether and offer prayers directly to God.

I choose #3. The Commemoration of a Martyr is not the same as praying to a martyr. . . I'll make my prayers to Christ, and if you choose otherwise, that is your business.

I don't encourage it, I preach against it. . . and encourage people to put their trust and prayers in the hands of Christ alone. As long as there is a shred of doubt in my mind, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Fr. Rob

 

[KC Catholic]

I am just playing your game, Fr. Rob. I proved my point..you are picking and choosing to believe whatever you want, which has a larger risk than leaning on the Catholic Church's teachings, which is the 'pillar and foundation of truth'.

You started the quotes...I simply proved that your facts are not totally true, thus leading others to believe false notions.

I trust Jesus with my prayers, I also trust my spiritual family in Heaven to pray right along side me as well because they, too trusted in Christ that he would hear and answer our prayers.

edited out personal attack by KC Catholic

 

[VOW]

To Fr Rob:

Quoting thousands of quotes on the topic does not change the fact that three people explicitly quote against it.

I'm curious, why do YOUR quotes have more weight to them than the ones provided by KC?

As Catholics, we put our faith in our Church, in the teachings of our Church, and trust that She will not lead us astray.

Because if we are allowed to "quote shop" or "Scripture shop," we can find justification in almost anything.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[KC Catholic]

Also, we could go scriptural as well....

In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4). Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10). Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

I got many of these quotes from http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp.

Just so you know I am not calling these my own.

So, based on the Catholic Church's interpretation of scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Early Church Fathers we see that there is overwhelming evidence that the Saints hear our prayers, its OK to pray to them for help (they can't do any more than pray right along side of us to Christ) and that they are well aware of what takes place here on earth.

You, of course are free to disagree.

 

[jukesk9]

I'll make my prayers to Christ, and if you choose otherwise, that is your business.

See, that's just it that non-Catholics don't understand.&nbsp; These prayers GO to Christ!&nbsp; Who do you think Mary is taking our prayers to?&nbsp; She can't answer them herself?&nbsp; She's taking them to Christ, the one mediator.

 

[Fr. Rob]

KC-

"You started the quotes...I simply proved that your facts are not totally true, thus leading others to believe false notions."

Again, so long as there is one diseenting voice in the Primitive Church that stands against something, you cannot post hundreds of quotes and expect me to just capitulate. One person objected. Last I checked, only a handful of people objected to Christ's crucifixion. . . and they went ahead and did it anyway. Not that it was right - though it was planned - but further proof that the majority is not always right.

The quotes you made prove to me very little, other than 1) there was considerable discussion on the topic about which no full and general consensus was reached and 2) that many of the verses you quoted can equally apply to the general intercession of the saints and angels, which we both agree (I hope!) is going on in Paradise or wherever we want to say they are currently resident.

I believe that they are interceeding for me, for the Church, and for the world. That much we agree on. . . but if the early Church believed, at least in a few places, that the prayers were general and not specific (i.e., the skinned knee example), then I see no problem with not asking Saint Swithun to pray for my (or Suzie's) skinned knee.

Further, you can't answer a charge along the lines of "unforgivable rites" with hundreds of other quotes. . . none of which answer the original charge. If there was a quote from, say, Nicea I that said, "Concerning Lactantius and his heresy, we condem it. . . " then I'd be apt to listen.

Also, putting aside our disagreement on what constitutes Catholicisim, I cleary identify myself in my signature line as a Presbyter of the Primitive Episcopal Church. I'll let the users of the forum decide what they want to call me.

Fr. Rob