another possibly dumb question

[Lynn]

We believe that "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead." Absolutely!

We also believe that Christians who die are in heaven. So which dead will He judge? Those who aren't Christian? Does that support the belief which many Catholics share...that there are many paths to heaven, besides Christianity?

please help me understand this.

lynn

 

[marciadietrich]

I believe there are two judgements... a personal judgement at the time of death which determines the state of your soul and whether or not you are heaven or hell bound. Then the general resurrection and the final judgement of all... even though some may be hell bound at the time of their personal judgement they won't be cast into hell until the final judgement. For those heaven bound depending on the state of their soul they may or may not need purgation. Some think time won't be a factor after death, so that someone who died thousands of years ago it won't seem any different in time as someone who dies the day before the general resurrection. It will be at that point also, that we are rejoined to our physical body (resurrected) instead of just our soul.

I think that is correct, at least mostly within Catholic thought. I hope that someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Marcia

 

[marciadietrich]

P.S. Lynn...

I don't believe this in particular supports your belief in "many paths to heaven" but I don't think it is outside of Catholic belief to hold hope for people who are not professing Christians.  There is Romans 2: 12-16 speaks of those outside the law being judged on the law written on their heart.  Matthew 25: 31-46 some take as an indication that those who show Christian love will be saved.  The Catechism speaks somewhat on this in the same section where it speaks on 'seperated brethren' - protestants (Catechism 839 to end of that section).  But the church does hold that ALL who are saved are in one way or another saved thru the Church...whether they realize it or not. 

Marcia

 

 

[VOW]

To Lynn:

We must understand that time does not exist outside of this world, this life. Once we die, we enter into a completely incomprehensible state. When we try to explain things like Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, Judgment, the Saints of the Old Testament, we can only use words that express the parameters of this world. It gets confusing, especially when we're told that God and His plan has existed since before the beginning of time.

So I've settled it in my mind, in my heart, by just knowing it's all up to God. He will judge the Living and the Dead, and His Kingdom will have no end.

That works for me.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[sklippstein]

Originally posted by marciadietrich
P.S. Lynn... 

  But the church does hold that ALL who are saved are in one way or another saved thru the Church...whether they realize it or not. 

Marcia

 

 

It's salvation through Jesus Christ....not through the Church.  And there is only one path to salvation.....again that's through Jesus.

Yes the Church teaches about salvation....but it can only be achieved through Jesus.  A Church can't save you.

 

[marciadietrich]

Catholics would say savlation comes from Christ the head through the Church his body  (Catchecism 846 ) ... so yes of course all saved are saved ultimately by Christ ... but also that all saved are part of the Church (salvation through the Church)whether they know it or not. 

Also Catechism 846 says:

 

Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

If Lynn was looking for the Catholic view, then I don't think I was incorrect.  Obviously Christ is our savior, but he works thru the Church he established and all saved are part of the Catholic church either directly or indirectly.

Marcia (edited spelling on quote)

 

[potatohorse]

Originally posted by sklippstein
 

It's salvation through Jesus Christ....not through the Church.  And there is only one path to salvation.....again that's through Jesus.

Yes the Church teaches about salvation....but it can only be achieved through Jesus.  A Church can't save you.

right, no church can save you.

 

[panterapat]

All who adhere on some level to the teachings of Jesus, participate in the Original Deposit of Faith given to the Church by Jesus. Since all love comes from God then all who love also participate to some extent, in this Deposit of Faith. For this reason, the Catholic Church can state that "There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church."

There is no salvation outside of Jesus and Jesus gave us His Church to be His instrument on earth. All who believe or act in some respect according to the commandments of God and the teachings of Christ are in part participating in the Catholic Church.

So one need not be a Catholic or a Christian to get to Heaven. The graces of the Catholic Church are extended to all humanity (whether they know it or not).

In Christ, Patrick

 

[potatohorse]

So one need not be a Catholic or a Christian to get to Heaven. The graces of the Catholic Church are extended to all humanity (whether they know it or not).

if one does not agree with catholic doctrine, nor belong under roman authority, how can one be extended the catholic church graces of salvation?

 

[Defender of the Faith 777]

This is a fascinating question.

No one is judged right now. We will all be ressurected one day, some to judgment, some to eternal life.

So in reality, when people say at a funeral "He/she is with the Lord right now" it is true, but it's not their permanent residence. one day, all will be brought back with their bodies, and THEN they will be permanently in heaven or hell. But it's like the rapture. They're all watching, waiting, and when the time comes, we'll all be there to be judged.

 

[geocajun]

Originally posted by Lynn
We believe that "He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead." Absolutely!

We also believe that Christians who die are in heaven. So which dead will He judge? Those who aren't Christian? Does that support the belief which many Catholics share...that there are many paths to heaven, besides Christianity?

please help me understand this.

lynn

Hi Lynn, Paragraph's 1020-1042 in the Catechism will be helpful for you but I will quote some particular paragraphs in that section below:

Particular Judgement:

1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.[590] The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul-a destiny which can be different for some and for others.[591]

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification[592] or immediately,[593]-or immediate and everlasting damnation.[594]
At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.

The Last Judgement:

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"[621] will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."[622] Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him .... Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.... And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."[623]

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.[624] The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life: All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."[625]

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvellous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.[626]

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."[627] It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all who have believed."[628]

 

[panterapat]

Potatohorse,

 

Originally posted by potatohorse
if one does not agree with catholic doctrine, nor belong under roman authority, how can one be extended the catholic church graces of salvation?

 

Even if a person does not agree with every Catholic Doctrine (many Catholics don't).  To the extent that they follow the dictates of God,(ie: love of neighbor, belief in a higher being, etc.), it is to that extent they participate in the Original Deposit of Faith.  So to be even in a partial union with God, is to be in partial union with the Catholic Church (the protector of the Deposit). 

 

In Christ, Patrick