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Another poor response to ERV evidence for common ancestry by a creationist.

Astridhere

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No actually the opening post puts up a whole rheeme of woffle and an essay that is based on erraneous and contradictory evidence with simplistic algorithms often being poohied by the lastest one.

Let's go right back to the very start where you flatly denied that this research has anything to do with ervs.

Their study of the model organism Daphnia pulex (water flea) is the first to demonstrate the colonization of a single lineage by "introns," as the interrupting sequences are known. The scientists say introns are inserted into the genome far more frequently than current models predict. The scientists also found what appear to be "hot spots" for intron insertion -- areas of the genome where repeated insertions are more likely to occur. And surprisingly, the vast majority of intron DNA sequences the scientists examined were of unknown origin.
"The thinking has been that these insertion events are very rare because they always have bad effects," said postdoctoral fellow Abraham Tucker, a lead author of the Science paper.
Introns -- nonsense DNA -- may be more important to evolution of genomes than thought


So here we have the door open to large genomic sections being inserted through parallel transfer. Generally with bad effects which backs the other research I posted today. This supposedly happened 200,000 times with non lethal effects. Wakey Wakey lovey??? Some erv's reside in introns. Therefore you cannot tell if many of the introns you count as endogenous due to Mendellian inheritance were inserted this way at all 20mya and more. You can guess.

These algorithms are based on preconcieved assumptions. They are designed to look for what is most similar. (I think they will find similarities between coconuts and eggs) Similar is not similar at all in the real world with anything as close as 40%-60% being adequate to count as the same. Further to that some compress data for simplification and do not account for deletions and insertions, nor length of sequence. So they discount anything that looks different then get results like 40-60% similarity, and then have the hide to put this biased nonsense forward as evidence

You have lost this debate with me, as there are too many doors open to errors in your algorithms. They are not credible. No matter how complicated they get they never will be. You are frustrated because anything you provide is based on algorithms. That's all you've got in support of this erv evidence for ancestry. If you have researchers that challenge many algorithms as simplistic and narrow your opinion is not going to override that fact. As I say evolutionists have left observation behind and opened the door to storytellers.

Further to that this research suggests introns are inserted more frequently that current models predict. You lot are still confused as to whether the human genome is 1%-10% viral remnant. What the hell hope have you got of expecting any algorithm you devise to actually give you accurate data about anything let alone HGT percentages.

Everyone here does know don't they, that what you lot suggest are ervs that have inserted through HGT are said to be so purely based on the presumption that they'd be in other close species if they were anciently endogenised. Similarly those erv's that should be seen in various species are said to be purged or deleted purely based on the predetermined assumption of common ancestry. It is all unfalsifiable nonsense.

Maybe you can explain how an oviduct poofed into a triple uterus and then fused back into one uterus while selecting for the ervs that maintain mammalian pregnacy. Wake up!!!!!!!!

You loose because your algorithms are NOT observations and are simplistic and known to be erraneous..take it like a man!

Perhaps USCognito can tell us how it is. Tell us how you know when introns inserted by parallel transmission, which occurs more than predicted, did not carry ERVs with them and are not a sign of ancestry at all.

So, I have gone back to one of the first papers I produced and asked for a little more than the nonsense I got at first posting of it, which was introns have nothing to do with ERVs, which was of course rubbish.

Here is another great piece of work...These guys with all these algorithmic convolutions made big boo boos.

Is it a rabbit or a human erv? It will be whatever they want it to be!

Novel Endogenous Retrovirus in Rabbits Previously Reported as Human Retrovirus 5

A 930-bp fragment of a new retrovirus genome was previously identified in human tissues and provisionally designated human retrovirus 5 (HRV-5
Thus, this experiment confirmed that the sequences flanking HRV-5, which were originally cloned from human DNA preparations, were actually rabbit genomic sequences

Novel Endogenous Retrovirus in Rabbits Previously Reported as Human Retrovirus 5

You evolutionists have lost this round lovies. The reason being to argue about the intricacies of this nonsense is based on ridiculous and non-credible algorithms that count or ignore whatever they need to, swish that with a stack of predetermined assumptions and insertion values placed on misrepresented fossil evidence, throw in a bottleneck or two and a heap of likely, maybes and possiblies and whallah...you have nonsense mutations and nonsense data that mean absolutely nothing as far as evidence goes.
 
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Astridhere

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Even after all this time, how would you know?
I know because curved fingered ape like creatures, that are 3.5ft tall and have arboreal traits are not going to have fully developed human footprints, darls. Neither did they think Lucy had human feet until they found the Laetoli footprints. They had to suck these up and stick human feet on an ape as that is the best they could do in desperation, it seems.

Rather human footprints dated to 3.7mya demonstrates that mankind was already here when our supposed ancestors had not even been born yet. ...just like birds and that mess you lot try to weasel out of with more non plausible scenarios.


I'm guessing your Dunning-Kruger effectesque knowledge of female anatomy is going to be as bad as your knowledge of hominid fossils... but let's see...



Two ovaries and filopian tubes leading to a cloaca in Monotremes evolves into a system with two uteruses in Marsupials and then a fused single uterus in Eutherians is mind blowingly impossible to you? Gosh, to me it just makes sense.

Oh you hand waved away the best bit "EVOLVES INTO A SYSTEM". This you so naturally glided over. Lovey you have destroyed your own argument. Systems do not evolve darling, they are created. Do you think and ERV told some poor fetus in some non placental mammal to shoot out a placenta and tell mum to get her biological systems in order to feed it? Not likely!

Straw men always seem incredible to those who don't know any better.


No straw men are partially constructed by the hand waving gestures of evolutionists that replace observation with storytelling and non plausible scenarios that any fool should just accept blindly.

Another straw grabbing man is represented by your researchers that can't tell the difference between a rabbit and human ERV!!!!!!:doh:
 
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Blayz

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Overlong and largely irrelevant tracts of history aside, I found this article very entertaining, thanks for posting.

Here's my highlight from that paper:
"The human homolog of the cdc2 gene, which codes for
a key cell cycle control protein in yeast
, can replace the yeast
protein in spite of amino acid sequence differences (Murray
and Hunt 1993), and the Drosophila pax-6 gene, which codes
for a protein involved in positioning of the eye, is efficiently
replaced by the mouse homolog
(Halder et al. 1995)."

You'd think a bunch of IDers desperate to smoke and mirror their way out from under the evidence would know that the biological definition of "homolog" is "related by descent"
 
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Loudmouth

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Perhaps USCognito can tell us how it is. Tell us how you know when introns inserted by parallel transmission, which occurs more than predicted, did not carry ERVs with them and are not a sign of ancestry at all.

Perhaps you can tell us what percentage of the 200,000 ERV's are found in introns?

Is it a rabbit or a human erv? It will be whatever they want it to be!

Novel Endogenous Retrovirus in Rabbits Previously Reported as Human Retrovirus 5

A 930-bp fragment of a new retrovirus genome was previously identified in human tissues and provisionally designated human retrovirus 5 (HRV-5
Thus, this experiment confirmed that the sequences flanking HRV-5, which were originally cloned from human DNA preparations, were actually rabbit genomic sequences

Are these insertions found at orthologous positions in humans and rabbits? If not, it is irrelevant. No one is arguing that a virus that infects humans can not infect other mammals. What is being argued is that orthologous ERV's can only be produced through common ancestry. Why do you keep making this same mistake over and over? This is the same mistake you made with PTERV insertions. This is the same mistake you made with the paper on ERV-K insertions in humans and rhesus monkeys. Do you not realize that we are looking at the position of the ERV's in each genome?
 
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Naraoia

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Doveaman

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So where did scripture predict that ERV's will fall into a nested hierarchy among humans and other apes?
The resurrection.

“Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life...For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom He is pleased to give it.’” (John 11:25, John 5:21).

The resurrection is a re-creation of a lifeform which existed before using the same DNA. In some cases the DNA may be modified slightly to create slight genetic changes in the new lifeform.

images
images


If Adam (human) was re-created with modifications from the DNA of a hominid (ape) then their ERVs will fall into a nested hierarchy, but this would not be the result of evolution, but the result of re-creation (resurrection).
This is really sad. This is not a prediction. This is propoganda. It is sad that you can't tell the difference between the two.
It predicts what we would expect from an atheist.

“The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:14).
Big surprise here. A religious text stating that people who do not believe in this religion are fools. Wow.
NO -- It is referring to people who do not believe in God.
Yes, for the same reason that the scientific method can not establish a link between rainbows and leprechauns. The ability of the scientific method to push fantasies to the side is one of its strengths.
And its inability to think outside of its myopic box is its weakness.

If leprechauns exist outside of nature your myopic-scientific method would be incapable of knowing whether or not they exist. The same is true of God.
Then the lack of people experiencing Leprechauns does not change the fact that Leprechauns are real, right?
Wrong. No one has ever experienced Leprechauns, but we do experience God, even if your minority group doesn't.

It should also be noted that many scientists and evolutionists also do experience God, even if your minority group doesn't.
Again, your method is useless. The theo-scientific method takes a fantasy, pretends it is real, and then protects it from any criticism through unfalsifiable statements.
It is falsifiable using the theo-scientific method that can explain the reality that exist outside of nature, instead of your myopic-scientific method that is boxed in by nature.
This is only a method for tricking yourself into believing in fantasies.
“The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:14).
So what empirical observation, if made, would falsify the existence of God?
Total darkness.

“This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light”. (John 3:19).
Even if I showed you an observed, testable, falsifiable, and well documented natural mechanism that produces biodiversity you would not accept it.
Yes I would.
That is my point.
No it is not.

Your point is that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor. You have not shown this. You simply offer an explanation of why you think it is so, and I simply reject your explanation in favor of my own.
 
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Loudmouth

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The resurrection.

How does it show this? How does the pattern of orthology point to Resurrection instead of common ancestry?

NO -- It is referring to people who do not believe in God.

I know. If I quoted a greek poet who said that people were fools for not believing in Zeus would this convince you to believe in Zeus?

And its inability to think outside of its myopic box is its weakness.

Why is it a weakness to reject theories that are not supported by any evidence?

If leprechauns exist outside of nature your myopic-scientific method would be incapable of knowing whether or not they exist.

The question is whether or not Leprechauns have an effect on the natural world. You claim God does have a detectable effect on the natural world. Therefore, you should be able to cite scientific evidence to support this claim. It is not scientists who are keeping God out of science by making God unfalsifiable. That would be you.

Wrong. No one has ever experienced Leprechauns, but we do experience God, even if your minority group doesn't.

There are many historical accounts of people seeing Leprechauns. They are experienced as much as God is.

It is falsifiable using the theo-scientific method that can explain the reality that exist outside of nature, instead of your myopic-scientific method that is boxed in by nature.
“The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor 2:14).
Total darkness.

According to the theo-scientific method, what type of genetic marker should not be shared by humans and other apes? What type of fossil should we not find?

Your point is that humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor. You have not shown this.

LTR divergence within orthologous ERV's does show this. These evidence evolutionary mechanisms that caused genetic divergence over time. This conclusion is falsifiable. If you were to show no correlation between LTR divergence and known phylogenies then evolution would be falsified.

You simply offer an explanation of why you think it is so, and I simply reject your explanation in favor of my own.

You do so because of your dogmatic religious beliefs, not the evidence.
 
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Astridhere

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How does it show this? How does the pattern of orthology point to Resurrection instead of common ancestry?



I know. If I quoted a greek poet who said that people were fools for not believing in Zeus would this convince you to believe in Zeus?



Why is it a weakness to reject theories that are not supported by any evidence?



The question is whether or not Leprechauns have an effect on the natural world. You claim God does have a detectable effect on the natural world. Therefore, you should be able to cite scientific evidence to support this claim. It is not scientists who are keeping God out of science by making God unfalsifiable. That would be you.



There are many historical accounts of people seeing Leprechauns. They are experienced as much as God is.



According to the theo-scientific method, what type of genetic marker should not be shared by humans and other apes? What type of fossil should we not find?



LTR divergence within orthologous ERV's does show this. These evidence evolutionary mechanisms that caused genetic divergence over time. This conclusion is falsifiable. If you were to show no correlation between LTR divergence and known phylogenies then evolution would be falsified.



You do so because of your dogmatic religious beliefs, not the evidence.

I've already told you one should not rely on algorithms that choose what they want to count, ignore the differences like deletions and size, need bottlenecks and maybe's to explain inconsistenices and then call that evidence. It is not evidence of common ancestry.

It is evidence that your researchers can play around with algorithms and bias them sufficiently to get the data that supports the erraneous presumption the algorithm is based on.

How many times do you need to be told that this erv stuff only looked good for you while ervs had no function. NOW that is not the case and you have had to turn mankind into a virus now to cover your nonsense.

http://www.lnt.ei.tum.de/mitarbeiter/hanus/publications/paper/0806_WCSB_RVclassification.pdf

This article above demonstrates the straw grabbing.

Based on the obtained XRV clustering, the assignment
of ERVs found on the corresponding subtrees of the XRV
genera was attempted. It could be observed that only the
XRVs from the beta and gamma genera have closely related
primate ERV counterparts. The remaining primate
ERVs seem to cluster in distinct genera with distant relationship
to the alpha, delta and beta XRV clades (they are

depicted by a “?”).

For those undecided that do not understand this stuff in depth, take a look at this article below on HIV. These researchers have put up a convincing argument re HIV not being an erv that causes AIDS.

Does HIV Exist: An Interview with Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos--Christine Johnson

The research was not published. I can see why. It is because their findings will undermine the basis of all this algorithmic nonsense, as it applies to the whole lot, that you put forward as evidence based on biased algorithms.

Evidence that researchers like to waste their time mucking around with biased algorithms is not proof of anymore than that...they like to waste their time and get paid for it...
 
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Astridhere

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Loudmouth..all your genomics point to a single common ancestor. This is what even your own biased research indicates. You theorise on the basis of commomn descent from bacteria that there were other cohorts each and every time this occured on uncountable numerous occasions.

If this were not sufficiently far fetched and non plausible your biased research methods also indicate that although you reckon mankind has been around for 200,000 years the identical ancestor point was 5-15 thousand years ago. So again you would have us believe a non plausible myth just because that is what is required to justify your biased findings.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7008/full/nature02842.html

You lot actually have stacks of evidence for the creation, including the functionality of ervs. You need to befuddle this information with all sorts of rubbish to come up with evolutionary support that is founded on ignoring dissimilarity at the base of your comparative genomics.

The day you lot replaced observation with mythical algorithmic magic was the day such scientists should have been banned from biology labs.
 
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Astridhere

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HIV is not an ERV of any sort, FYI. Just a plain old retrovirus.

(And that must be my most TLA-laden sentence ever.)



Yep..and they can't even work that out properly, let alone anything else. The article demonstrates the instability and challenges of this kind of work

Dr. Eleni Papadopulos is a biophysicist and leader of a group of HIV/AIDS scientists from Perth in Western Australia. Over the past decade and more she and her colleagues have published many scientific papers questioning the HIV/AIDS hypothesis. This interview by Christine Johnson looks at this work and especially her group's views on the AIDS virus itself.


Here is Alice in Wonderland again sprooking research quoted has found no problems again.

Again, I will say you lot ignore differences like size and deletions, require bottle necks back to individuals and lots of maybe's and likelys to justify the contradictions.

What you produce as evidence for the human erv connection to chimps is biased assumptive, and I'd say purposefully misleading, research that is not evidence of anything more than people being paid for wasting their time.

These researchers need to be banned for misrepresentation.
 
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Loudmouth

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Loudmouth..all your genomics point to a single common ancestor. This is what even your own biased research indicates. You theorise on the basis of commomn descent from bacteria that there were other cohorts each and every time this occured on uncountable numerous occasions.

Right now we are focusing on the common ancestor of humans and other apes, or did you forget that already? Why are you bringing bacteria into it?

Again, the evidence for this shared ancestor is the same ERV's at the same location in each genome, that is ORTHOLOGOUS ERV's. Your constant harping on algorithms that have nothing to do with the determination of orthology between ERV's in different species is irrelevant. Examples of non-orthologous ERV's are also irrelevant.

If this were not sufficiently far fetched and non plausible your biased research methods also indicate that although you reckon mankind has been around for 200,000 years the identical ancestor point was 5-15 thousand years ago. So again you would have us believe a non plausible myth just because that is what is required to justify your biased findings.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v431/n7008/full/nature02842.html

If you went back 5-15 thousand years ago that population would have an MRCA that existed 5-15 thousand years before they did. Do you even understand what this article is saying?

You lot actually have stacks of evidence for the creation, including the functionality of ervs.

Why are functional ERV's evidence that species were magically poofed into being? Please explain.

The day you lot replaced observation with mythical algorithmic magic was the day such scientists should have been banned from biology labs.

Which algorithms were used to determine if ERV's are orthologous between humans and apes? Either name them or admit that you don't know what you are talking about.
 
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Loudmouth

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What you produce as evidence for the human erv connection to chimps is biased assumptive, and I'd say purposefully misleading, research that is not evidence of anything more than people being paid for wasting their time.

Please cite the biased assumptions and misleading research in this quote:

"Given the size of vertebrate genomes (>1 × 109 bp) and the random nature of retroviral integration (22, 23), multiple integrations (and subsequent fixation) of ERV loci at precisely the same location are highly unlikely (24). Therefore, an ERV locus shared by two or more species is descended from a single integration event and is proof that the species share a common ancestor into whose germ line the original integration took place (14)."
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences
 
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Loudmouth

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I've already told you one should not rely on algorithms . . .

Which algorithms are used to determine if an ERV is orthologous in two different species.

Which algorithm is used to determine LTR divergence within a single ERV?

that choose what they want to count, ignore the differences like deletions and size,

Deletions and size are not ignored. In fact, they are very useful phylogenetic markers.

It is not evidence of common ancestry.

Why not? Why isn't the same retroviral insertion at the same location in two separate species evidence of a single insertion in a common ancestor?

It is evidence that your researchers can play around with algorithms and bias them sufficiently to get the data that supports the erraneous presumption the algorithm is based on.

Name the algorithms used to identify orthology and LTR divergence, and then show how they are biased. Either show it or admit that you don't know what you are talking about.

Based on the obtained XRV clustering, the assignment
of ERVs found on the corresponding subtrees of the XRV
genera was attempted. It could be observed that only the
XRVs from the beta and gamma genera have closely related
primate ERV counterparts. The remaining primate
ERVs seem to cluster in distinct genera with distant relationship
to the alpha, delta and beta XRV clades (they are

depicted by a “?”).

Are they comparing orthologous ERV's? Yes or no?

For those undecided that do not understand this stuff in depth, take a look at this article below on HIV. These researchers have put up a convincing argument re HIV not being an erv that causes AIDS.

Do you doubt that HIV is a retrovirus, and that it inserts randomly amongst millions of bases within the genome? That is the only relevant subject matter in this thread. Whether or not it causes AIDS has nothing to do with whether or not it is a retrovirus.
 
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Naraoia

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Loudmouth..all your genomics point to a single common ancestor. This is what even your own biased research indicates. You theorise on the basis of commomn descent from bacteria that there were other cohorts each and every time this occured on uncountable numerous occasions.
That last sentence doesn't make sense.

If this were not sufficiently far fetched and non plausible your biased research methods also indicate that although you reckon mankind has been around for 200,000 years the identical ancestor point was 5-15 thousand years ago.
Where exactly is the problem with that?

You lot actually have stacks of evidence for the creation, including the functionality of ervs.
Just answer me one question. What observation wouldn't be evidence of creation?

The day you lot replaced observation with mythical algorithmic magic was the day such scientists should have been banned from biology labs.
Translate: maths and stats are scary for Astrid.

Some maths teacher somewhere should be fired.

Here is Alice in Wonderland again sprooking research quoted has found no problems again.
Excuse me, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

ERVs are retroviruses heritably integrated in the host's genome. HIV is not an ERV (that I know of).

As for the AIDS denialism...

picard-facepalm.jpg


That's all.
 
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Naraoia

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Do you doubt that HIV is a retrovirus, and that it inserts randomly amongst millions of bases within the genome? That is the only relevant subject matter in this thread. Whether or not it causes AIDS has nothing to do with whether or not it is a retrovirus.
Oh, do look at that interview she linked. The woman being interviewed is trying to argue that HIV doesn't exist. Apparently, no one has managed to take convincing EMs of it, or something. And the reverse transcriptase could come from an ERV. I stopped paying close attention after a few questions and answers...

I did some google image searching, and the pics that came up looked viral enough to me, but what do I know. They're probably all faked, like the thousands of Genbank entries and all the studies like this one.
 
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Loudmouth

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Oh, do look at that interview she linked. The woman being interviewed is trying to argue that HIV doesn't exist. Apparently, no one has managed to take convincing EMs of it, or something. And the reverse transcriptase could come from an ERV. I stopped paying close attention after a few questions and answers...

Indeed, especially given the fact that you can expose cells to HIV and then find HIV insertions in the cell's genome:

PLoS Biology: Retroviral DNA Integration: ASLV, HIV, and MLV Show Distinct Target Site Preferences

Where does she think new HIV viral particles come from? How does she explain the correlation between HIV viral load and CD4+ counts? How doe they explain the infectious nature of HIV? Insane does not even start to touch HIV/AIDS denial, but oh well. Crazy is as crazy does.

Added in edit:

Found this electron micrograph of HIV viral particle:

hiv_full.jpg
 
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Astridhere

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Indeed, especially given the fact that you can expose cells to HIV and then find HIV insertions in the cell's genome:

PLoS Biology: Retroviral DNA Integration: ASLV, HIV, and MLV Show Distinct Target Site Preferences

Where does she think new HIV viral particles come from? How does she explain the correlation between HIV viral load and CD4+ counts? How doe they explain the infectious nature of HIV? Insane does not even start to touch HIV/AIDS denial, but oh well. Crazy is as crazy does.

Added in edit:

Found this electron micrograph of HIV viral particle:

hiv_full.jpg


Yeah..clear as mud.. hey?????

I believe any mucking around and intergration into the germ line of an RVs genomic material is going to cause havoc and reduce fitness, and unlikely to fix in any population. So here natural selection of advantageous mutations has nothing to do with evolving mammals. In fact rather the opposite, it was the unlikely population fixation of a likely deleterious mutation (endogenization of RVs) that gave rise to mammals.

This article supports my claim that the endogenization of an RV is likely or at least may, cause havoc as one of the events following endogenization of a retrovirus..

Evolutionary Aspects of Human Endogenous Retroviral Sequences (HERVs) and Disease - Madame Curie Bioscience Database - NCBI Bookshelf


Does this mean Darwin was...(dare we creationists say it)...WRONG?

I note the one thing neither of you two go near is the fact that your researchers in their useless algorithms ignore differences like size or length of sequence & deletions etc, then use this simplistic data to arrive at what may or may not look sort of similar in a kind of sort of a way with more deletions and nonsense mutations, then throw in a bottleneck to apply a bandaid to the data that just wont add up. Throw in a few likely's and maybe's and presto this is what you like to pass off as support, or worse you call it evidence, for comon ancestry.

You go nowhere near this because it is absolutely true. Hence any of your data that is produced via the use of algorithms is not worth the paper it is printed on, unfortunately for evolutionists.

Rather the discovery of so called ervs demonstrates that vaguely similar sequences to virus are present and created in the genome to provide a multitude of genome functions one of which is maintainence of mammalian pregnancy and non rejection of the embryo. This sequence, or rather remnant ghost, has nothing to do with any imaginary possibly, likely or maybe virus that you imagine existed long ago.
 
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Astridhere

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Oh, do look at that interview she linked. The woman being interviewed is trying to argue that HIV doesn't exist. Apparently, no one has managed to take convincing EMs of it, or something. And the reverse transcriptase could come from an ERV. I stopped paying close attention after a few questions and answers...

I did some google image searching, and the pics that came up looked viral enough to me, but what do I know. They're probably all faked, like the thousands of Genbank entries and all the studies like this one.


Well you hit the nail on the head..what would you know? What would any of your researchers know?

I suppose you think this researcher is on her own do you?

There is plenty of irate researchers around that are peeved that the basics around retrovirus are so misunderstood in particular around AIDS as it is so well studied and drug companaies make a fortune from vaccines.

As for Loundmouth who says "Where does she think new HIV viral particles come from? How does she explain the correlation between HIV viral load and CD4+ counts? How doe they explain the infectious nature of HIV? Insane does not even start to touch HIV/AIDS denial, but oh well. Crazy is as crazy does."

I say you are more talk than anything else, Loudmouth. You do not fool me. You lot love to simplify it all with your gobble that really means nothing. This researcher is not on her own in her concerns that you dismiss with a hand wave and woffle. This HIV stuff is about peoples lives and the gobble just doesn't cut it. These people want answers.

Here is a snip from an article by Etienne de Harven, M.D., Brussels University (ULB), 1953, became a full member of Sloan Kettering Institute, New York, N.Y, in 1968, and is emeritus professor of pathology, University of Toronto.

Since 1996, real-time PCR has been used to claim quantification of a postulated HIV viremia, termed "viral load," in AIDS cases. These methods have been based on the study of patients' plasma samples: initially, samples originated from nuclei of peripheral blood mononuclear cells, and later from low-speed centrifugation pellets of plasma. (83) The various methods applied to the PCR measurement of the so-called "viral load" have one point in common: they all bypass direct isolation of retroviral particles demonstrable by EM. These methods are not expected to isolate, nor concentrate any retrovirus. Moreover, as clearly stated during the South African 2000 conference, (26) not one single particle of retrovirus has ever been seen, by EM, in the blood plasma of any AIDS patient, even in those patients identified as presenting with a high so-called "viral load." That statement, widely publicized, has never been refuted nor challenged. (84)

The existence of endogenous human retroviruses has been known for some time, but their interference in HIV/AIDS research has yet to be widely appreciated. Of course, HIV should not be considered an HERV, since the hypothetical HIV is supposed to be an exogenous, infectious microorganism, while HERVs are fundamentally endogenous, non-infectious, vertically transmitted, defective viruses. Still, HERVs have been a "confounding" factor in HIV/AIDS research, (92) and have caused confusion in interpreting the concept of "viral load." Moreover, HERVs put HIV researchers on the wrong track, creating the illusion of continuous HIV mutations--mutations that improperly served to explain the extreme difficulty in preparing anti-HIV vaccines. However, difficulties in developing anti-HIV vaccines might not be explained by a constantly mutating HIV, but rather by a lack of exogenous HIV.

Finally, the question as to whether HIV exists, or of whether researchers have been studying a harmless passenger virus, is a question that should be subject to open debate and careful consideration of scientific evidence or lack thereof. Alternative explanations for findings should be decided by the scientific evidence, not by consensus. The advancement of our understanding of AIDS demands nothing less
Human endogenous retroviruses and AIDS research: confusion, consensus, or science? - Free Online Library


You lot go bla bla bla and think that settles any matter in your own heads. The problem is what you say is just bla bla bla with more bla bla bla to refute it and more again to refute that...and on it goes in endless circles.

Your algorithms with their ignorance of dissimilarity and loaded insertion values are not worth the paper they are writren on, particularly in relation to less studied XRVs. Effectively your ERV data is proof your researchers like to play with algorithms and waste their time chasing ghosts.
 
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Aeneas

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I say you are more talk than anything else, Loudmouth. You do not fool me. You lot love to simplify it all with your gobble that really means nothing. This researcher is not on her own in her concerns that you dismiss with a hand wave and woffle. This HIV stuff is about peoples lives and the gobble just doesn't cut it. These people want answers.


You lot go bla bla bla and think that settles any matter in your own heads. The problem is what you say is just bla bla bla with more bla bla bla to refute it and more again to refute that...and on it goes in endless circles.

...

. Effectively your ERV data is proof your researchers like to play with algorithms and waste their time chasing ghosts.

So basically you don't understand what Loudmouth is saying and are attempting to dismiss it by calling it names. That's ad hominem.

Look, it isn't a requirement that everyone enjoy science, but if you don't, and you don't understand it, could you stop insulting those of us who do? kthxbai.
 
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