Another Lust Thread-My Specific Problem

[Armistead14]

Again, you don't dispute that Jerome found pre-marital sex to be sinful.

Everything we know about ancient Jews and early Christians, the Christians of the first couple centuries, indicates that virginity at marriage was considered good and that lack of virginity at marriage was undesirable, that fooling around before marriage was considered sinful.

We aren't to be slaves to our flesh or to promote lust in our hearts.

You keep saying everything we know, but back it up with something other than the statement.

Who could deny Jerome saw premarital sex as evil, he saw all sex as evil, in and out of marriage. Study his writings, he basically viewed women as evil, even stated a womans privates were as filthy as pigs.


Virginity was desired at marriage for who...new unmarried brides, because they were property of the father to be given to the husband. Her virgin status proved she had not been with another man, bore his children, etc..
Most of these girls married before 14, but were allowed to marry at 12.5 years of age. If a girl wasn't a virgin, it was possible she gave birth. Children then were workers, that was there value. This was the reason for the dowry, the father would lose a worker, so the husband paid the father for this loss.

We can say virginity is more desirable, but that doesn't make pre marital sex sinful, non virgins could marry and have all the protections as a virgin as long as they admitted they were non virgins.

Non virgin women highly outnumbered virgins, but most of these were married and husbands killed in battle. These women often had premarital sex, some accepted, some forced, but the man had to follow biblical law, they could marry them or not, it was up to the man.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

I'm not interested in nit picking and rationalizing.

I know that God created mankind male and female, and that God created human sexuality so that when a man and a woman come together sexually there is a potential for a miracle to happen: new life.

I know that God blesses faithful loving marriage between a man and a woman, and the sex between that man and woman, which is not defiled.

I am not interested in pursuing, endorsing, or providing rationalizing speculation for any other sexual activity, as the Bible condemns sexual activity as sinful, and even the lust of the heart as sinful, when it is not between a man and a woman who are married: one flesh.

 

[dayhiker]

I agree with your 1st 3 sentences, ToBeInChrist.

I'd like to hear your ideas on.

How in the Bible do we know when the Bible, KJV, speaks of flesh wether its its our physical body or our fallen nature.

I'm not interested in speculation either. So we have that in common, beyond our love for Jesus.

 

[dayhiker]

Yes, Armistead, I'm aware that translators are translating porneia as sexual immorality. I've seen the Bible dictionaries and Greek lexicons that list the condemned OT activites as being included in what Paul was talking about when he used porneia.

But I don't see the logic of how they get from a word that means prositution to say beastiality. I definately don't think the Greeks were thinking of OT purity laws when they read the NT. They surely knew little about what the OT said till there had been attending sermons for a while of a preacher who knew the OT.

So they come across to me as teachers that are looking for any way possible to broaden what the Bible says is sexual sin to make people feel guilty and thus have control over the people.

So I'm looking for a better explaination. I've not seen it yet.

Actually you can link pornia, translated to sexual immorality, but the bible clearly stated what the activity was. They're 32 verses that contain the word Pornia. Biblically, where pornia is used it describes an illicit and illegal sex act according to biblical law and never used generally. Each is clearly defined, the ones I listed, OTT, it has no basis to define sexual conduct or immorality.

Sadly, translators mistranslated fornication in several places as pornia/porneia. They did this to give pornia a broader definition and as you stated the church often redefined it to suit needs and control sexuality. Fornication itself was also given a much broader meaning.

Many leaders like Augustine and Constantine deemed all sex evil, even in marriage except to procreate. They created many laws regarding such and if you failed not only did you have to repent, you paid fines to the church. It was a great money maker. During this time they also did away with all the marriages of priest, only to protect church property from divorce and the church would no longer have the cost of upkeep of these large families.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

How in the Bible do we know when the Bible, KJV, speaks of flesh wether its its our physical body or our fallen nature.

Have a particular passage in mind? How does this tie in to the discussion?

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Dayhiker,

I'm wondering what problem you have with my fourth point:

I am not interested in pursuing, endorsing, or providing rationalizing speculation for any other sexual activity, as the Bible condemns sexual activity as sinful, and even the lust of the heart as sinful, when it is not between a man and a woman who are married: one flesh.

 

[dayhiker]

ToBeInChrist,

In post #39 you said - We aren't to be slaves to our flesh or to promote lust in our hearts.

I agree that we aren't to be slaves to our flesh. But I'd put a lot of quilifications on this.

I assume you look at the context to know if the Bible is talking about our sinful nature or our physical body. So if we were addicted out an activity, then I'd say we were a slave to it. But someone who masturbates a few times a week I don't see as addicted. So they would be a slave to their flesh.

If the context of flesh is sinful nature, then we need to love God and people instead of doing things that hurt them. Our sinful nature being that thing within us that wants us to hurt people and forsake God.

So it ties into our decussion because it is the generic term for the thing within us that describes the evil sinful desire. But I've heard preachers imply a lot of things made us a slave our flesh when I can't find any where that the Bible says a thing is sinful.

 

[dayhiker]

Sexual activity I don't see as sinful. Some sexual activity is sinful.

Dayhiker,

I'm wondering what problem you have with my fourth point:

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Sexual activity was designed by God and is good when engaged in the way God intends.

Re: harming others, we don't need to harm others to commit sin.

 

[dayhiker]

Ya, I know that what ever is not of faith is sin.
But I don't think God makes rules just to make them. So generally I think sin is hurting people and not worshiping the true God. How do you view that?

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Ya, I know that what ever is not of faith is sin.
But I don't think God makes rules just to make them. So generally I think sin is hurting people and not worshiping the true God. How do you view that?

I don't particularly think I need to understand a rule to justify be obedient, though I do like having an idea what a rule is about, sometimes. I mean, my the fact that something is my own opinion or makes sense to me just doesn't impress me as much as it used to.

God did create sex and life can be created when a man and woman have sex, and that's mysterious and awesome and sacred. God does have the authority to say: sex is for a married man and his wife, and in the Bible we do find this principle. In the Bible, when sex is mentioned other than between a married man and his wife, what do we find? Again and again we find it is identified as sinful. That's a consistent pattern. The theme is easy to find throughout the Bible, both testaments.

Does sex outside of marriage harm? Often it is quite obvious that it does harm. Even when it isn't obvious to everyone that it causes harm, if we think about it keeping in mind what the Bible shows us, such sex is 'off', far from ideal, misses the mark, even when God accommodates us due to the hardness of our hearts (allowing for divorce and remarriage in the Old Testament, for example).

I could rationalize a lot of things by saying there's little harm done, or no obvious harm that I can see.

 

[dayhiker]

I agree that if God makes a rule then we are to follow it. I don't find that God does make arbitrary rules. I find the church has made rules. Like when I was at youth camp and the preacher wanted me to sign a pledge to never drink alcohol every in my life. Well, where is that in the Bible? So its a man made rule. Not that God can't ask a person to not drink alcohol, He can. But if God asks one person to, its not a rule for everyone.

yes, God created sex and what a wonderful thing it is. I've enjoyed it a lot and often thank God for the pleasure it brings. But it took me quite a bit of study to be free from the guilt the church put on me so that I could enjoy the sex that God created. First there was the guilt from masturbation. Don't see the Bible saying that's a sin anywhere. And not many preachers preached it was a sin, but I sure found it in quite a few books that I read, including a church youth program I was apart of in High School.

I also don't find sex is just for a married man and his wife. So man of the gerat men of God had more than one wife: Abraham, Jacob and Esau, Moses, David and Solomon. God even says in the Ez. that he has two wives. Rome had a law that a man was to only have one wife, but not God's people Israel. Indeed at the time of Christ, Israel thought it was so important that they be able to have more than one wife that they got Rome to give them an exception to that law. Jerome pokes fun at Jews that are out walking with more than one wife. Some say God allowed men in the OT to have more than one wife, but ofcourse again the Bible doesn't tell us that, its a man made idea. Indeed as we read the Bible we fine that when Marium and Arron confront Moses when he takes his 2nd wife, that God defines Moses and that is when God says about Moses, "Moses is faithful in all my house."

Then there is David. God judges David for his adultery with Bathsheba. Nathan the prophet at that time doesn't say to David, oh, its about time to get rid of your extra wives. No Nathan says God gave you all the wives of Saul and if that wasn't enough you just had to ask and I'd have given you more. No every pastor I know would be all over a man in his church who had more than one wife. But not God, God says, I'd give you more wives.

So the church has a nice tight package, sex is only for a man and his wife. But that doesn't line up with what the Bible says.

 

[Slaol121]

Lust never equals sexual thought biblically, it's a false teaching. Sexual thought comes from puberty, the way God made you. The reason you can't defeat sexual thought is...you can't, God made it impossible to do so, so why fight God because he made you with sexual desires.

Lust is to covet, desire to take what isn't yours, extreme jealosy or just simply an overwhelming desire that could be used for good or harm. Once can lust for wealth or power. Lust is better defined as overwhelming desire to do harm.

Sexual thought, desires, etc., are a part of normal growth. After puberty it will become a big part of your life. It's the driving force that will eventually lead you towards marriage.

The human body is a glorious thing to look at and it's natural to desire to see it. Understand it's western culture that has perverted the natural naked body into something evil. In cultures all around the world, most tribal, they run around naked and don't go into evil lust because boobs and booty are open for public. In fact, they don't even notice nakedness. I've been to several mission trips to Africa and you go to church and you'll see several hundred naked butts in the air when they pray. Our culture and religion has taught us that sexuality is evil, so at a young age our minds develop viewing sex as ugly, dirty, lustful, etc. This is turns perverts sex and causes jealousy and often perverted sexual behavior. Most of our perverted sexual problems stem from religions goal to make sex evil, instead of teaching normal sexuality.

It's hard because of our culture to rid ourselves from the guilt we have from our sexuality. Many do in the secular world, but they do step into many sexual areas that are just sin. We see on TV sex often corrupted, almost always adultery, no talk of STD's or condom use. Hollywood isn't gonna ruin a good sex scene with a talk of STD's before.

Simply, at your age sexual desire and fantasy are there...period. You can't defeat it, but you can control it. When does it need control, when it does harm. God gave us many natural human needs that are part of our chemical make up, some are strong, food and sex are two natural hormonal needs that are very strong, but we have the will to keep them from doing harm. Don't entertain evil sexuality in your thoughts, rape, child sex abuse, beastality, etc..
As you get older the actual sex act will become the issue. You again will face the issue of harm, possible pregnancy, STD's, broken hearts, the often games and lying to get sex...until you're ready to deal with sex and know you're responsible with these issues, you're not ready. In fact, the only sure way to cover most sexual issues without harm is in a loving faithful marriage.

Why sexual desire leads us to marriage, it's really a small factor in holding a good marriage together. Again, my experience in Africa, Borneo and others where people run around naked sex is the last thing they consider in marriage, larger women are more desired, stronger workers and big hips to them mean easier childbirth and more babies. Beautiful women in america would be considered unwanted there. Because they're not so sexually corrupted by religion of hollywood, they find it much easier to deal with other issues beyond sex.

Accept you have sexual desires, but learn to set limits. Your other choice in non ending guilt, constant repenting daily.....just silly and harmful.

Great post.

 

[ToBeInChrist]

I find the church has made rules. Like when I was at youth camp and the preacher wanted me to sign a pledge to never drink alcohol every in my life. Well, where is that in the Bible? So its a man made rule. Not that God can't ask a person to not drink alcohol, He can. But if God asks one person to, its not a rule for everyone.

I agree with you that drinking alcohol in itself is not sinful. My understanding is that grape juice naturally starts fermenting pretty much immediately, so it's just a matter of how fermented grape juice is. In recent times we have developed methods of processing grape juice so that we can bottle it and not have a more or less fermented product. So at best, new wine in the Bible, was pretty freshly crushed grapes with very little fermentation, but it was not completely free of alcohol. Was it like 'near beer', like 'odouls' in terms of degree of content? I don't know the details. Anyhow, the Bible does not prohibit ordinary wine that is a bit stronger in content than 'near beer' or 'odouls'. The Bible prohibits drunkenness. To help keep others from stumbling, one may abstain from alcohol, of course, and that would be good. But people can miss the point and get picky.

On the other hand, look at all the times sex is mentioned positively or not denounced as sinful in the Bible: it is when it is between a married man and his wife, when it is for the spouse and not merely for themself. Look at all the other times sex is mentioned in the Bible, all the other situations, and you can associate such situations with passages in the Bible that condemn sin. Add to this Jesus' comments about sinning in our hearts.

So what is the equivalent of 'getting drunk', on the subject of sex? Certainly visiting prostitutes sounds like an equivalent. But it's broader than that. Just as drinking some wine may be very good, having sex with someone of the opposite sex who you are married to can be very good. Just as getting drunk is sinful, so is sex with someone of the same sex or someone you are not married to. Add to that the principle that pleasing ourselves ought not be our focus.

Whether someone masturbates once or a thousand times, why is it they don't just wait until the urges pass? Is the flesh that much of a master that we must submit to its demands?

God puts the ok on pleasuring one's opposite-sex married partner, and enjoying it. Other sex does not meet with endorsement from Scripture.

But it took me quite a bit of study to be free from the guilt the church put on me so that I could enjoy the sex that God created.

Well one should not feel guilty for loving sex with one's opposite-sex married partner that pleases one's partner and oneself also. That guilt is needless, unfortunate, man-made guilt.

First there was the guilt from masturbation. Don't see the Bible saying that's a sin anywhere.

I should feel appropriate guilt when I let my flesh dominate me so that I lack patience and self-control, whatever the issue, but I should then re-orient my mind towards obedience to God's way (repent), ask for God's forgiveness and grace, commit to do the right thing from then on, and walk in freedom from guilt having faith that I am forgiven and empowered to resist sin and to be free from sin.

When Jesus spoke on divorce, he said the basis for marriage is based in the early chapters in Genesis, that God made mankind male and female and a man and a woman join together to become one flesh. He also said divorce and remarriage was tolerated because of the hardness of people's hearts. A clear implication is that marriage to more than one woman was also permitted because of the hardness of people's hearts. Some things were regulated to restrain worse practices, rather than disallowed altogether, in the Law of Moses.

David was not encouraged to abandon wives, he was steered towards being more faithful. This is not an endorsement of multiple wives, especially considering what Jesus said as noted above.

 

[dayhiker]

Good day, ToBeInChrist,
Looks like we view the Bible somewhat differently. I have read every reference to sex and marriage in the Bible. I don't see all references to sex outside the Bible as being wrong. For example, Song of Solomon is an erotic poem. As I read it, the two love described is between two single people. I don't see any marriage spoken of and the situations where they are romantic are the place that single people tend to make out at.

So with our disconnect we may not be able to discuss this further. I really do appreciate the tone of your posts. Some don't do it as civil as you have.

 

[prophecyistrue]

I had to stop reading post after the first few pages, and realize this is about the worst place you could go for good advice, aside a few biblically based answers, that were truth, the majority is filling your young itching ears with what they want to hear, first of all let me just say you are in a place and time as no other in the history of mankind that humanity in general is bombarted daily with sexual images and lyrics pertaining to sex, and stories, and movies, that are in complete opposition to the Spirit of God. you are failing, because there appears to be no way you can get away from it, besides running away and joining an Amish community. the only way your going to be successful, is if you start controling what you allow your mind to think about, Yes! it seems impossible at first, the failure rate might even make you stop trying, but if you don't give up, and start rebuking sinful thoughts as soon as they hit the door of your mind, you will soon notice, being you consistantly keep trying, that these barrage of sinful thoughts will begin to space out farther and farther. most importantly you must feed your spirit good wholesome food, things that have the fruit of the Spirit. you won't be able to overcome this battle if your hanging out with people that don't see it as a sin, and they love to revel in sinfulness. One more note, this is hardly a youthful sin only, It has its grip on young and old alike. but you can be victorious over this, and you will be alot happier knowing your in control of your own mind, because you want to live a life pleasing to God

 

[dayhiker]

I find the majority are seeking to love Jesus and want to know the truth. So just as Jesus we are questioning the traditions of men. We research things so that our understanding isn't based on based on ascetic ideas of the Gnostic but on God's freedom that He purchased for us thru Jesus' shed blood. So we don't deny the way God created us but realize that what God created is good. Yet we didn't live up to God's standard of love, so we have to also turn to Jesus the author and prefecture of our faith.

 

[Slaol121]

X3 Watch - Internet Accountability, Filtering and Porn Filtering Software | X3watch

The above link is a good site built by a group that seeks to minister to those in the adult film industry, and those Christians that struggle with the temptation of pornography.

They provide free internet accountability software to download.

 

[bumbumbum]

Thinking and acting on are two different things man.

 

[dayhiker]

Amen That's why I seek to love people the way Jesus did.