Another INteresting Article

[simchat_torah]

The guy who wrote this article probably knows alot more about oral Torah than most in here as he studied in yeshiva and has been in the messianic movement for years. Have you ever heard of Beth Messiah in Maryland?

Yes, I have.

Now, about this guy... Don't make me laugh. His article here only expounds his absolute and abounding ignorance concerning Oral Torah. Just because someone can say a lot of nasty things about the Jews and their beliefs, doesn't mean they know squat.

probably knows alot more about oral Torah than most in here as he studied in yeshiva

He studied in a self proclaimed messianic yeshivah. That, my friend, means absolutely nothing.... nothing. But, if you think he is so

Oh, and btw, Beth Messiah in Rockville Maryland calls itself a 'church', not a synagogue. It is a part of the federation of Messianic churches, and Asher Intrater goes by "pastor" under Dan Juster's leadership at Tikkun. For the pastor of a church to speak 'authoritatively' on Oral Torah is a joke. Its a christian church with a few flavors of Jewish things. Just because these christians wear a kippah and tzitzit doesn't mean they know anything about Judaism, and HOW DARE HE "speak" for the Jews as he did in this article.

have never torn down any of my Jewish bretheren who don't believe in Yeshua who keep oral Torah.

except multiple times here on CF.

I have never torn down any messianic who was priorly orthodox and as a new believer still felt led to continue with rabbinic practice.

Again, except here on CF.

How am I not representing anything Jewish?

Just because you wear a kippah doesn't make you express a form of Judaism.

I don't celebrate Christmas (although I don't paganize those who do), do you paganize them?

I don't celebrate Easter ( again I don't paganize those who do) , do you paganize them?

I don't paganize anyone. However, if one practices paganism, then they are entering a form of paganism... I'm not going to cover it up and lie with a smile. I encourage all to follow HaShem, and while I won't call an individual pagan (that's between G-d and the person) I will not cover up with lies and refuse to tell them they are entering paganistic practices.

I celebrate all the Jewish feasts ( and even keep some tradition which I know comes from oral torah, but I don't consider it binding), do you consider it binding?

Again, wearing a kippah doesn't make your religion jewish.

Do I consider oral torah binding? Yes and no.
HaShem stated his Ruach would be with the Beit Din for all time, and that their words would be His words to us as a community. However, there is more than one Beit Din. My problem comes with discerning which Beit Din is by extension G-d working here in earth.

I also continue to find it ironic that you hold to many many many traditions found in oral torah, yet condemn it at the same time. How hypocritical.

after another listing of "jewishy" types of outter expressions you adhere to, you say:

how can you say I don't look Jewish at all?

I never said you don't "look" Jewish. Sure, you have a lot of fancy "Jewishy" flavors, but you certainly don't follow a form of Judaism. Don't fool yourself, and please stop trying to condemn those of us who do follow a form of Judaism.

I have a plethora of unbelieving Jewish friends ( and I don't always befriend to evangelize) 80 percent of unbelieving Jews in Israel agree with my opinion about oral torah

Ok, so you align yourself with and find your theology within G-dless people. Now I know where you are coming from.

how does what i say not look jewish?

Again, its not "look". You sure do have the look down. Its the inside that matters, not the outter looks.

Let's just look at a few statements made by this article:

Therefore, the redemptive plan of God would have to comprise two parts, one for the heart and one for the actions.

The law (the Torah), or the commandments of Scripture, deal with our actions.

Ignorance. The torah deals with the heart, not purely actions.

. However, as the people continued to sin, the more specific prohibitions of the Ten Commandments had to be added to make clear what it meant to love God or our neighbor

And this guy went to a yeshivah? right...
Noah knew what was clean and unclean. How did he know? Because the Torah pre-existed Moshe's time. Granted, it was not written down, but it certainly was taught.

The rabbis know that the Torah in and of itself is incomplete.

No rabbi has ever said this, and I haven't met a single rabbi that thinks this. Here he assumes to know the heart of the Jews, and only exemplifies his ignorance.

The purpose of the talmud (mishnah and gemarah) is to complete the Torah by adding further details and more laws to answer every situation.

more and more ignorance. The purpose of the talmud was to bring consistency to the community in how they observe Torah together. It does not 'add' to the Torah, at least in intent, and no Rabbi would tell you otherwise. The Talmud is also only seen as partially authoritative, as it is the 'basis' for halacha, not halacha itself. When a Beit Din sits down to write Halacha, they use the Talmud to help discern the halacha they write. A halacha is not equal to a mitzvah in the Torah. The greatest halacha is less than the least of the mitzvot in the torah.

The law was never meant to function by itself but rather to be part of a process that includes a change of heart.

Now the author contradicts himself.

*sigh*

There are two options to completing the Torah. The first option is the rabbinnic method of adding an almost infinite number of halacha.

Again, the Rabbis do not see the Torah as incomplete. And the purpose of halacha is not to 'complete' the torah, but rather to help the Jews observe the torah as a community.

First God confronts us with moral law and then He seeks a change in our heart. The law is given first externally and then internally. These two stages come in two covenants.

No, the same mitzvot of the Torah affect the internal and external. The new covenant has not been fully enacted yet. The New Covenant is that of "no more sin". Its not that G-d will overlook sin, but that sin will cease all together. The "renewed covenant" began with Y'shua, and is in the process of continuing until the end of days. The first covenant was to be in the heart, and it is this very covenant that is renewed inside the heart... the one you refer to as "new".

We, as Messianic Jews (and in fact all believers in Yeshua), do not reject any of the law. In fact, we are all to keep the law. However, our approach to the law and our understanding of how to keep the law is different from the halachic approach.

Obviously the author was ignorant of the Messianic Beit Din in Acts. They made halacha.

I think I will follow them instead.
-Yafet

 

[simchat_torah]

Shalom Erin,

There are two sides to Messianic Judaism:
Those that practice the Law in an Orthodox manner, and those that don't. (LOL!)
It is not for me to decide who is to be which way.
I simply do in my life as I feel HaShem is calling me to do.

and that's fine. I am only arguing with those who want to condemn those of us who hold to halacha as applicable in our lives.

 

[simchat_torah]

A Great website www.tikkunministries.org

And for an even better websites, go to www.m7000.com and www.ffoz.org and www.chabad.org

 

[simchat_torah]

Moral Law and the Holy Spirit my friend is what counts

There is no division in the torah between "moral", "ritual", and "community" laws. This concept was birthed by christians who wanted to condemn the Torah, but continue keeping certain laws which they found favorable (such as "do not committ adultrey", etc). These christians want to cling to the laws which they like and throw away the rest as worthless. Thus they created these 'divisions' of law.

 

[iitb]

This thread is temporarily closed pending staff evaluation. I'm pretty sure we'll have to ban everyone who's participated.


Seriously, It'll probably be re-opened shortly.