Another "hands up, don't shoot" lie

[Shodan]

You said "freeze". I used "freeze" only as a response to your post.

The official version of the story is:

"Chief Tomba is quoted as saying, "Loehmann shouted from the car three times at Tamir to show his hands as he approached the car."[2]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Tamir_Rice

There was no audio on the video

Since there is no audio, we don't know that Loehman shouted from the car. Nonetheless, Rice's reaction to whatever the police said was to reach for a gun. Either he was reacting to what they said by reaching for a gun, in which case the shooting is justified (because the cops generally shoot people who are reported to be waving a gun around in a public park, and respond to being told to freeze/drop their hands/whatever was said by reaching for a gun), or Rice did not hear the police say anything at all, or react to it -he just automatically reached for his gun when he saw the police drive up. In which case, the shooting was still justified. Because the police generally shoot people who reach for a gun whenever the police show up.

Such is the claim.

Instead of simply taking the "official" story at its word, i encourage you to watch the two videos of him with his hands up as he's shot multiple times. In neither video can i detect a knife.

I was talking about the second video, where the victim says he has a knife and says he is going to force the police to shoot him. That's what he means by his repeated reference to "suicide by cop" - that he was going to force the issue until the police shot him, and was not going to submit or tone it down. I can't recall if it is the first video or the second where the person doing the filming says he sees Flores with a knife.

Care to show me the video evidence exonerating Darren Wilson? I wasn't aware that any video of that incident existed.

Well, I said "evidence", not just "video evidence". Although I believe Brown is caught on the surveillance camera robbing the convenience store, so the narrative of "innocent giant waltzing down the street and getting shot in cold blood" is disproven by video, if you like. And I believe the contraband was found on Brown after he was dead (once the threatening mob interfering with the collection of evidence from a crime scene was neutralized).

I couldn't find anything for Lamar Grant. Would you provide that example as well?

My bad, it was Jamar Clark, not Lamar Grant. The video in that has yet to be released.

Can you quickly provide 5 or 10 (actually, 8 or 13, since i've already provided 3 more examples) of the incidents you claim?

No, that's the point of what I said about "man bites dog". Video tape of normal arrests, where the police do everything by the book, don't get into even the local media. Only unusual incidents do. Police breaking the law is unusual - therefore one is prone to over-estimate the number of times it happens from the amount of attention it attracts.

Who kills more Americans each year - sharks, bees, or pit bulls? Which deaths get the most attention?

Which kills more people - traffic accidents, or airplane crashes? When was the last time a car accident made the national news?

One cannot judge how serious a problem is by how much attention the media pays it. Otherwise one would think that bad breath was more serious a problem than even police shootings.

Regards,
Shodan

 

[whatbogsends]

Since there is no audio, we don't know that Loehman shouted from the car. Nonetheless, Rice's reaction to whatever the police said was to reach for a gun. Either he was reacting to what they said by reaching for a gun, in which case the shooting is justified (because the cops generally shoot people who are reported to be waving a gun around in a public park, and respond to being told to freeze/drop their hands/whatever was said by reaching for a gun), or Rice did not hear the police say anything at all, or react to it -he just automatically reached for his gun when he saw the police drive up. In which case, the shooting was still justified. Because the police generally shoot people who reach for a gun whenever the police show up.
I was talking about the second video, where the victim says he has a knife and says he is going to force the police to shoot him. That's what he means by his repeated reference to "suicide by cop" - that he was going to force the issue until the police shot him, and was not going to submit or tone it down. I can't recall if it is the first video or the second where the person doing the filming says he sees Flores with a knife.
Well, I said "evidence", not just "video evidence". Although I believe Brown is caught on the surveillance camera robbing the convenience store, so the narrative of "innocent giant waltzing down the street and getting shot in cold blood" is disproven by video, if you like. And I believe the contraband was found on Brown after he was dead (once the threatening mob interfering with the collection of evidence from a crime scene was neutralized).
My bad, it was Jamar Clark, not Lamar Grant. The video in that has yet to be released.
No, that's the point of what I said about "man bites dog". Video tape of normal arrests, where the police do everything by the book, don't get into even the local media. Only unusual incidents do. Police breaking the law is unusual - therefore one is prone to over-estimate the number of times it happens from the amount of attention it attracts.

Who kills more Americans each year - sharks, bees, or pit bulls? Which deaths get the most attention?

Which kills more people - traffic accidents, or airplane crashes? When was the last time a car accident made the national news?

One cannot judge how serious a problem is by how much attention the media pays it. Otherwise one would think that bad breath was more serious a problem than even police shootings.

Regards,
Shodan

So, at this point, we have 1 incident in which video evidence contradicted the eye witness claim of police wrongdoing (the subject of this thread).

We likewise have 5 incidents in which video evidence contradicted the claims of police who assaulted civilians and abused their authority. As i said, i can easily produce another 5 or 10 without much effort. With a little more effort, i can continue to find examples that show these types of incidents.

Your claim is that police being wrongly accused and then exonerated by video evidence is frequent, and that police wrongly accusing and then being shown to be lying is infrequent. I see absolutely no evidence to support your narrative.

Do i think that "normal arrests" greatly outnumber incidents of police brutality? Absolutely! Does that mean that i accept the amount of police brutality and abuse of authority (and general trend to lack of consequence for those actions) as acceptable? Absolutely not! I'm not talking about snap decisions in dealing with criminals, i'm talking about clear instances in which police not only acted inappropriately, but also lied about the circumstances of their actions to justify those actions.

None of what i'm talking about is "how much attention the media pays to it", because the media largely ignores both types of incidents.

As far as Rice's reaction to "reach for a gun", i'm pretty sure Rice knew that his gun was not real, so your assessment of "his reaction was to reach for a gun" is not based in fact, but is a narrative created by the people who shot him within 2 seconds of arriving on scene.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The fact that in case the cops were right doesn't mean anything other than the fact they were right in this case. It doesn't change the fact that people are skeptical if not distrusting of cops due to the numerous cases law enforcement has acted outside of the law. There is still a very good reason we have the 4th, 5th, and 6th amendments.

But the fact is, we're supposed to be talking about THIS case. THIS case wasn't a case of police brutality, although people tried to play it like it was.

 

[SnowyMacie]

But the fact is, we're supposed to be talking about THIS case. THIS case wasn't a case of police brutality, although people tried to play it like it was.

Your title seems to imply that this is really about every case of police brutality.

 

[The Barbarian]

I do note that there were perhaps a dozen officers on the scene of the motorcycle incident, and only two of them actually broke the law. The woman, for threatening to seize the camera "for evidence", and the moron who started chest bumping the guy away from the scene.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Your title seems to imply that this is really about every case of police brutality.

It really doesn't. It refers to the situation at hand, which is another hands up lie.

I'm the OP and I'm telling you this. Why do want to argue it?

 

[SnowyMacie]

It really doesn't. It refers to the situation at hand, which is another hands up lie.

I'm the OP and I'm telling you this. Why do want to argue it?

What exactly do you mean by "another"? When I, and I feel like others, read that, it reads that this is another example of when the cops did the right thing and the suspect wasn't surrendering even though everyone thinks they were.

 

[Shodan]

As far as Rice's reaction to "reach for a gun", i'm pretty sure Rice knew that his gun was not real, so your assessment of "his reaction was to reach for a gun" is not based in fact, but is a narrative created by the people who shot him within 2 seconds of arriving on scene.

Actually you can see him reach towards his waistband, where he had the gun, in the video. And IIRC the gun was found in his waistband. So the narrative was created by what happened.

What Rice was thinking doesn't enter into it. The police did not know that the gun was an Airsoft pistol, nor could they tell in the two seconds between when they pulled up and Rice reached for the gun.

Maybe Rice was going to show the cops that it was an Airsoft pistol, maybe he was going to play make-believe and scare the cops. Both are bad ideas.

The question is whether the cops did anything wrong, based on their understanding of the situation and on two seconds' notice. They received a report of someone waving a gun around, in a public park, at night. When they pulled up, the subject tried to pull the gun. So they shot him. That's a tragedy, because sometimes it is only an Airsoft pistol and it's just a dumb kid pretending to be Rambo.

Sometimes it isn't.

As far as the police knew, Rice was threatening other people with a gun, in a public place. Saying the police should assume the gun isn't real, or wait until he gets a chance to show whether the gun is real or not, is not a Good Idea.

Regards,
Shodan

 

[PreachersWife2004]

What exactly do you mean by "another"? When I, and I feel like others, read that, it reads that this is another example of when the cops did the right thing and the suspect wasn't surrendering even though everyone thinks they were.

It certainly is. But it's not to compare it with the others, that's all. We have a ton of threads through N&CE that talk about each of those incidences.

 

[iluvatar5150]

As far as the police knew, Rice was threatening other people with a gun, in a public place. Saying the police should assume the gun isn't real, or wait until he gets a chance to show whether the gun is real or not, is not a Good Idea.

As much as I think the police in the Rice case were foolish and unjustified, I really don't like the "but it's a toy" argument. You're right - police can't assume that it's a toy.

That said, their job is to serve and protect the public and that OUGHT to include giving anybody - even criminals - the chance to surrender, not going in guns-blazing and maybe issuing commands while simultaneously shooting. Soldiers deployed overseas have stricter rules of engagement than this; i don't see why we can't afford the same safeguards to our citizens that we do to citizens of occupied territories.