Another Free will thread

[ThatRobGuy]

How are some Christians able to promote the idea of free-will and at the same time, actively try to pass laws preventing things like gay marriage?

If God's plan is truly for us to want to make the right choices on our own (free-will), doesn't passing a law that prevents someone from making their true choice going against what God wants??

As long as a person's choice doesn't actually harm another being, is it fair to God for people to try to override his plan of free-will via the secular government??

(I'm not a Christian, but I'm referring to God in the Christian sense for the purpose of this discussion)

 

[Washington]

How are some Christians able to promote the idea of free-will and at the same time, actively try to pass laws preventing things like gay marriage?

If God's plan is truly for us to want to make the right choices on our own (free-will), doesn't passing a law that prevents someone from making their true choice going against what God wants??

As long as a person's choice doesn't actually harm another being, is it fair to God for people to try to override his plan of free-will via the secular government??

(I'm not a Christian, but I'm referring to God in the Christian sense for the purpose of this discussion)

Ah, but the "right choice" you speak of is a tainted choice. A choice tainted by original sin, which is why anything that gives homosexuals any pleasure from their relationships must be quashed. Sure, they can be attracted to each other, but they can't be allowed to derive any happiness from it because the wages of sin is not only death but the suffering insured by those who are free of sin such as .............................................................................................................................................. Hmmm.

Ya know, considering that Christians too are sinful creatures---something they sometimes seemingly take pride in---I think the least homosexuals could do would be return the favor and deny heterosexuals a bit of pleasure and happiness. Won't help society any, but at least they'll get a good idea of what's in store for them after they die. And that's what we should all be doing, making sure everyone suffers a bit while on Earth In fact, I'm all for smacking a Christian up alongside the head every time they show signs of pride. I'm sure they'd appreciate the reminder that one can't suffer too much in life.

 

[ebia]

Ah, but the "right choice" you speak of is a tainted choice. A choice tainted by original sin, which is why anything that gives homosexuals any pleasure from their relationships must be quashed. Sure, they can be attracted to each other, but they can't be allowed to derive any happiness from it because the wages of sin is not only death but the suffering insured by those who are free of sin such as .............................................................................................................................................. Hmmm.

Ya know, considering that Christians too are sinful creatures---something they sometimes seemingly take pride in---I think the least homosexuals could do would be return the favor and deny heterosexuals a bit of pleasure and happiness. Won't help society any, but at least they'll get a good idea of what's in store for them after they die. And that's what we should all be doing, making sure everyone suffers a bit while on Earth In fact, I'm all for smacking a Christian up alongside the head every time they show signs of pride. I'm sure they'd appreciate the reminder that one can't suffer too much in life.

Sounds like an excellent idea. Let me know how you get on.

 

[stan1980]

How are some Christians able to promote the idea of free-will and at the same time, actively try to pass laws preventing things like gay marriage?

It's quite simple. Some christians are incapable of showing the intellect you have shown in this post.

 

[Maren]

The reasoning that God gave us free will therefore we must pass laws to restrict sinful activities is the same reasoning as salvation being a free gift, you only get it if you do what god tells you to do first (not free).

 

[ebia]

The reasoning that God gave us free will therefore we must pass laws to restrict sinful activities is the same reasoning as salvation being a free gift, you only get it if you do what god tells you to do first (not free).

Um, not really.

There are issues to be addressed in each statement, but they aren't the same issues.

In particular, the issues with the second relate for the most part to the fact that "salvation being a free gift":
a. requires considerable unpacking. "Salvation" is a shorthand for a much more complex story (and a widely misused one at that).
b. "is a free gift" is a metaphor, not the truth itself.
c. salvation isn't the starting point. Neither is faith.
d. any gift requires accepting - if accepting a gift amounts to paying for it then there is no such thing as a gift.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I appreciate the feedback thus far.

I was really hoping for some right-wing conservative Christian feedback on this one as well...any takers?

 

[Meshavrischika]

I'm right wing, christian and conservative... and I think passing laws that are based on religion is a stupid idea. You cannot legislate salvation... you cannot make someone "good" by making them do "the right thing". It doesn't work that way. If they're not hurting anyone else, let 'em do what they want because it doesn't matter religiously in the long run anyway. (Not to mention ideas like this are what turn people off to Christianity... )

 

[Verv]

How are some Christians able to promote the idea of free-will and at the same time, actively try to pass laws preventing things like gay marriage?

I think working to prevent homosexuality with punishments would be entirely hypocritical and woul dbe defeating.

However, marraige is a bit different as it is a contract between man and woman by the definition in the English language, what it has always been in our culture and society; extending the benefits is really a large legal question that should be taken on some quetions of how it would effect the society and legality and ramifications of what marriage is.

But you are right in a way. You are starting out well.

If God's plan is truly for us to want to make the right choices on our own (free-will), doesn't passing a law that prevents someone from making their true choice going against what God wants??

As long as a person's choice doesn't actually harm another being, is it fair to God for people to try to override his plan of free-will via the secular government??

(I'm not a Christian, but I'm referring to God in the Christian sense for the purpose of this discussion)

You are right.

Pope Leo XIII spoke of this precisely in his encyclical called Libertas.

Government will never make people better, nor will laws; the only way to become better is through your own interest in your relationship with God and your view of yourself. It is all a personal effort and not a governmental one.

Christians should never try to legislate their morality as it only succeeds in making us look bad as opposed to making others better.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I'm right wing, christian and conservative... and I think passing laws that are based on religion is a stupid idea. You cannot legislate salvation... you cannot make someone "good" by making them do "the right thing". It doesn't work that way. If they're not hurting anyone else, let 'em do what they want because it doesn't matter religiously in the long run anyway. (Not to mention ideas like this are what turn people off to Christianity... )

Forgive me for asking, but you say you're right wing. Your political icon show libertarian and your views on this issue wouldn't coincide with that of most of conservatives out there.

Are you sure you're right wing conservative?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

However, marraige is a bit different as it is a contract between man and woman by the definition in the English language, what it has always been in our culture and society; extending the benefits is really a large legal question that should be taken on some quetions of how it would effect the society and legality and ramifications of what marriage is.

I understand your point, but aren't there a lot of laws that change?

If you believe the Bible, the Christian God even changed his laws from the OT to the NT. And look at how many laws have been changed in the US to accomodate civil rights in the last 100 years. When women and African Americans first gained the right to vote, some people asked the same questions that you asked in your post above.

Just something to think about...

 

[Meshavrischika]

Forgive me for asking, but you say you're right wing. Your political icon show libertarian and your views on this issue wouldn't coincide with that of most of conservatives out there.

Are you sure you're right wing conservative?

lol. I choose libertarian because I'm VERY right... and kinda in between but I'm so disgusted with Republicans right now I cannot stomach claiming them.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

lol. I choose libertarian because I'm VERY right... and kinda in between but I'm so disgusted with Republicans right now I cannot stomach claiming them.

Gotcha...

Good for you, that's actually quite refreshing to hear. Most conservatives defend the republican party no matter how bad their doing.

 

[Meshavrischika]

Gotcha...

Good for you, that's actually quite refreshing to hear. Most conservatives defend the republican party no matter how bad their doing.

people like that are the ones that stay at a church that preaches the word incorrectly and with organizations that are corrupt too.