Another Controversial Topic

[jukesk9]

As some of you know, I'm a police officer (hoping to jump in the educational field in the next year, though ).  Anyway, the other night I responded as a back up officer to a call involving problems between a single mom and her teenage daughter.  Ms. 16 year old is having relations with her 18 year old boyfriend.  Mom is concerned she will get pregnant.  The primary officer suggested to the mother that she should teach her daughter about birth control.  The mother snapped back and said, "No way.  We're Catholic." 

I kept my mouth shut, remembering some words from Proverbs (even a fool looks wise when he keeps quiet).  But later that night, I got to thinking.  The daugher is already committing a serious sin.  How much worse would a non-abortificant form of birth control hurt? I then I put myself in the mother's shoes.  If my daughter was having relations, would I encourage birth control knowing that she's not going to stop seeing this guy? 

Here's what I'm thinking--right now anyway.  She's committing a serious sin.  God isn't looking at this "union" saying "I'm going to bless it with children."  Since we're not looking at a marriage, I'm not so sure that it would so horrible to encourage a non-abortificant form of birth control.  Definately I would try to get her to stop having relations.  But if she absolutely won't, what then? 

 

[ZiSunka]

God didn't set up human biology so that only married couples could get pregnant. She's in real danger of getting pregnant, and if she isn't following her church's teachings about sex outside of marriage, I doubt she will follow their teachings about abortion.

I think if her mom really loves her, she will take her far away from this guy (an adult no less), for her own good. To a convent if she has to!

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Two wrongs dont make a right. The Cathechism says clearly that contraception is a grave sin. I wouldn't add to one sin with a worse one.

I'd have a word or two with the 18 year old, mano a mano.

P.S.

As far as avoiding abortion, the "Pill" has a nasty side effect of aborting fetuses that try and implant into the lining of the uterus. So, she may commit three sins by going that route...adding murder to it is not the way to go.

 

[Annabel Lee]

That's a difficult question, Juke. As the mother of three daughters I've given it some thought. My fear for my daughter getting pregnant could outweigh my religious convictions. I'm just being honest. I'll have to give it some more thought.

Originally posted by lambslove
God didn't set up human biology so that only married couples could get pregnant. She's in real danger of getting pregnant, and if she isn't following her church's teachings about sex outside of marriage, I doubt she will follow their teachings about abortion.

That's not true Lambslove. One does not lead to the other. Abortion is a completely different matter. And I do speak from experience since I had a baby when I was young. Abortion was the furthest thing from my mind.

 

[VOW]

That's a real problem.

And it's easy to sit back and make statements, but reality often barges in no matter how tightly you lock the door.

My first gripe, of course, would be to Mom. If she's Catholic, her daughter should have been in Confirmation classes, where they TALK to these kids about sex, hormones, immaturity, and responsibility, all from a faith-based standpoint.

Mother and daughter need to see the family priest. And I would pray the priest would take the girl to a shelter, where teen mothers live. And I'd have the girl "volunteer" to do some community service at the shelter. She needs to see the actual RESULTS of sex. Is giving in to a boyfriend worth the loss of freedom, the stress, the responsibility, the LACK OF SLEEP that these other girls are enduring? I'd even have the girl stay overnight, to get up with a fussy baby, while the mom gets a few more winks.

I've tried to impress upon my children: sex is NOT a toy. It's not a fun way to say, "Hi, glad to meet you." It's not entertainment. And it's a LOUSY way to get to know someone. Sex was created by God to make babies. Period. All the other benefits of sex are incidental. Yes, it feels good, it's fun, and it can enhance the close relationship that two people share. But the PURPOSE, the Divine purpose of sex is to make babies.

Unfortunately, the young girl was not given this instruction at ages 5-6-7-8-9.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[nyj]

There are a lot worse things in the world than getting pregnant at an early age. Though I do not condone it, I cannot sit here and condemn it given my own less than lilly white past as a teenager/young adult.

In my opinion, if her daughter refuses to listen to her mother's advice than she must live with the consequences of her actions, which would be to carry the child for 9 months and then either raise her child (and sacrifice her evenings and weekends of hanging out with friends) or give it up for adoption.

I'd like to think that perhaps this girl would not be able to get an abortion in Arkansas without her mothers consent, but given that it IS the land of Clinton I'm sure this is just wishful thinking.

I like VOW's suggestion that this mother/daughter see a priest and then the daughter do some volunteer work at a home for single mothers. Until she sees the effects "up close and personal" this "abstract" notion of having a baby may not hit home with her.

And Souljah is right, commiting one wrong to counter another is not permissible for Christians.

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by Annabel Lee
That's not true Lambslove. One does not lead to the other. Abortion is a completely different matter. And I do speak from experience since I had a baby when I was young. Abortion was the furthest thing from my mind.

I wish all young women had your character, Annabel. Unfortunately, they don't.

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by nyj
In my opinion, if her daughter refuses to listen to her mother's advice than she must live with the consequences of her actions, which would be to carry the child for 9 months and then either raise her child (and sacrifice her evenings and weekends of hanging out with friends) or give it up for adoption.

I'd like to think that perhaps this girl would not be able to get an abortion in Arkansas without her mothers consent, but given that it IS the land of Clinton I'm sure this is just wishful thinking.

Do you think that if she isn't listening to her mother about something like premarital sex she'll listen about abortion? Sentencing her to have the baby doesn't mean that she will obey that. Even in states where there are laws restricting the reproductive rights of minor girls, those laws are not inforced. She could just sneak out of the house one day and not even talk to her mother about it.

This problem is about the girl's rebellion against her mother. If she's disrepecting her mother's wishes about sex, she's probably already on the pill.

 

[Miss Shelby]

If you allow a 16 year old to use birth control with your blessing, you are basically giving her permission to have sex.

Michelle

 

[seebs]

I know a lot of people who think abortion is immoral, but that consensual sex has no moral implications. I think they're wrong, but it is quite possible that the girl will listen to her mother about abortion, but not about premarital sex.

It's a tough call. (Personally, I'm not convinced that birth control is wrong, but I think we've already had that debate.)

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by lambslove
Do you think that if she isn't listening to her mother about something like premarital sex she'll listen about abortion?

I don't know what the girl is or isn't thinking about. I just know that the mother cannot hold her daughter's hand 24/7 and that sooner or later the teenager is going to have to live with the consequences of her own actions. Oh sure, moving half a country away will get the daughter out of the CURRENT situation, but there will be people to "shack up with" just about everywhere you go, so that doesn't really solve the problem.

Originally posted by lambslove
Sentencing her to have the baby doesn't mean that she will obey that. Even in states where there are laws restricting the reproductive rights of minor girls, those laws are not inforced.

No it doesn't, but where does one draw the line and say "Hey, I've warned you of the consequences as much as one is capable, it is now up to you to make your own decision." For some people it'll be a short fuse, for others they seem to have an endless supply of sympathy for their children, so much so that they empower their kids to act like spoiled little twits their entire life. Somewhere in the middle is a happy medium.

Originally posted by lambslove
She could just sneak out of the house one day and not even talk to her mother about it.

I'm sorry but if there is a law that states that a child MUST have the consent of the parent to obtain an abortion and that child gets an abortion WITHOUT that consent, the doctor who performs that abortion should go to jail. No if's and's or but's about it.

Originally posted by lambslove
This problem is about the girl's rebellion against her mother. If she's disrepecting her mother's wishes about sex, she's probably already on the pill.

Whether or not she is on the pill is of little signifance for this situation on hand. Your suggestion (moving far far away) is not a logical solution to the problem in most cases. Moving away from family, housing and employment because your child is behaving like a little barbarian sends an example of "it's ok to run away from your problems" rather than meeting them straight on.

 

[I can eat 50 eggs]

Isn't an 18 year old sleeping with a 16 year old a case for statutory rape?

 

[jukesk9]

VOW,

Before I left, I took the mother aside and suggested she see our priest.

nyj,

I don't know the answer about allowing abortions without parental consent here in Arkansas. The area I live in has around 300,000 people with three major hospitals and I'm almost 100% sure they do NOT perform abortions there (one is a Catholic hospital, the other my wife works at and the third one I can't answer for but I'm pretty positive they don't perform abortions). The yellow pages list three abortion clinics for our area: Tulsa (1 1/2 hrs away), Little Rock (3 hrs away) and Springfield, MO (2 hrs. away). Not to say one wouldn't make the drive. If it makes you feel any better, the northwest part of the state never voted for the dope from Hope. He ran for congress in the 3rd Congressional District and was trounced. He never carried many votes from here when he ran for guv'nr either.

I think Miss Shelby makes a really good point (not saying the rest of you don't). And quite possibly the root of the problem does lie with VOW's observation that more than likely the child didn't have the rearing she should have had when she was 5, 6, etc.

Now, that said. Here's where the cyber-stones are going to get thrown at me. Granted, I'm playing Devil's Advocate here and just throwing this out so please don't string me up. But after reading the Catechism, it addresses contraception within a marriage. So, if one is having pre-marital relations, then would adding birth control to it be another sin? Don't get me wrong. The pre-marital relations are serious sin. My thinking is this. Some are saying, "Hey pre-marital relations are wrong. But, birth control is worse. So, if she's going to have relations, better her get pregnant than sin by using birth control." I guess I don't see it that way. And that's what these debates are for. I wanted to discuss this with everyone. This is something that could happen to us parents down the line. My preliminary thinking is that if I can't stop her, then I'll protect her. But hey, abortion is way, way out of the picture. If my daughter ever got pregnant, we're keeping the baby.

The hard thing would be, if a parent helped the daughter with birth control, is later, when the daughter marries, is convincing her to keep birth control out of the marriage. Prior use of birth control would look like an endorsement for it for life.

Thanks for everyone's input. This is an enlightening discussion.

 

[jukesk9]

No 50 eggs. In the State of Arkansas, sadly, the age of consent to engage in relations is 14.  It only becomes illegal if the person having relations with the 14 year old is over 21 (I believe).  At 16, there is no age restriction.  Anyone can sleep with a 16 year old and not get into trouble, by law. 

 

[nyj]

Originally posted by jukesk9
But after reading the Catechism, it addresses contraception within a marriage. So, if one is having pre-marital relations, then would adding birth control to it be another sin?

Yes, adding birth control is another sin. That's why, when we go to confession, we are to reveal the sin and the approximate times that sin was committed. Each one is a slap in the face to God and each one must be repented of.

Originally posted by jukesk9
Don't get me wrong. The pre-marital relations are serious sin.

Serious yes, but not necessarily a mortal sin. Though the term "mortal sin" has not been used in this discussion, I just wanted to make this known.

Originally posted by jukesk9
My thinking is this. Some are saying, "Hey pre-marital relations are wrong. But, birth control is worse. So, if she's going to have relations, better her get pregnant than sin by using birth control."

I hope that is not what you thought I was stating, because it wasn't. I just said there are a lot of things that are worse than a teenager who gives birth to a child. I think that, even though it may be "too late", a stern discussion on chastity should be presented to that child.

 

[VOW]

To the best of my knowledge, there are states where a child can walk into Planned Parenthood and be given an abortion, no age questions asked. It's considered to be a matter of privacy.

And unless you've got a huge age difference, statuatory rape is difficult to prosecute. The DA office is besieged with horrible crimes that jam up the court calendar, and it simply is not cost-effective in time and effort to bust every guy with a loose zipper. Now, if there is a great age difference AND a pregnancy, you might have a case. Otherwise, your best bet is to make sure you get the guy's Social Security number so he can be socked with support payments.

I can truly see your side, Jukes, and you do have a point. But whether or not you provide birth control for the girl, you will still have to engage her cooperation to USE it. If she's hell-bent on getting pregnant, the only thing Mom could do is tie her down and get Depo-Provera. But there could be terrible fertility consequences from that down the road.

I think the best contraception is to get inside the kid's head. She's obviously searching for something she doesn't HAVE in her life right now. And as a typical kid, she lives only for the moment. If she doesn't think about getting pregnant, then POOF, it's not a problem. (don't blame me, that's the teen mindset, LOL) You could also be dealing with a kid who desperately WANTS to get pregnant, so she can have something that will love her. That's where my suggestion of community service at a teen mom shelter came in. She needs to find out that cute little babies cry, leak, throw up, squirm, and never, EVER sleep.


Peace,
~VOW

 

[jukesk9]

Originally posted by nyj

I hope that is not what you thought I was stating, because it wasn't. I just said there are a lot of things that are worse than a teenager who gives birth to a child. I think that, even though it may be "too late", a stern discussion on chastity should be presented to that child.

Serious yes, but not necessarily a mortal sin. Though the term "mortal sin" has not been used in this discussion, I just wanted to make this known.

No.  I generalized the majority's response into this.  And yes, there are a lot things worse than a teenager giving birth.  I agree with you. 

I'm glad you brought up mortal sin.  I too avoided use of the word mortal because I agree it's not necessarily a mortal sin. 

I have a daughter.  And I'd like to think that she's going to get all the love and parental instruction a child can.  Lord willing, both my wife and I will live long enough to raise her right and be there for her in difficult times. 

 

 

[jukesk9]

Well I hate that I started such a good discussion and have to bow out now. I've got to leave for work. Pick this back up later. God bless everyone.

 

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by nyj

Whether or not she is on the pill is of little signifance for this situation on hand. Your suggestion (moving far far away) is not a logical solution to the problem in most cases. Moving away from family, housing and employment because your child is behaving like a little barbarian sends an example of "it's ok to run away from your problems" rather than meeting them straight on.

I was talking more figuratively than geographically. And sometimes it is better to run away--like when the problem is a temptation that you can't handle!

Sixteen year olds can't handle that kind of temptation. They need to be separated and protected from it.

Talking to her about her church's moral values isn't going to do any good unless they are HER moral values, too! If she has no motivation to be in the will of her church, she ain't gonna care.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

seebs-

I dont totally "agree" with the Church on contraception in all cases, but I trust Jesus when He gave them authority, and if there is a chance they are right and it is a mortal sin, I aint takin the risk brotha!