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Another belief I struggle with within the SDA

janetjewel2000

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Hi Chris,

If you want to start another thread where we can discuss the differences of opinion, I am open to that.

I won't argue, though....but, I certainly would be willing to discuss the issues.

At least until we have a right idea as to what I believe, because you jumped to all kinds of assumptions about what I do believe...lol....for I never mentioned them herein.

You may be surprised that I agree with the "hell" issue. God does not put people in a everburning hell and torment them forever, that is a teaching I detest.

As for the sabbath, Jesus is the reality, whereas the "day" only pointed to Him. We get our rest from Him, through the gospel message, that is without works on our part, as a free gift.

The "letter" or stone law made that clear that it brought condemnation, whereas the law of faith/Christ brings life.

In christian love,

janet
 
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woobadooba

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janetjewel2000 said:
Hi Chris,

If you want to start another thread where we can discuss the differences of opinion, I am open to that.

I think it would be a good idea.

At least until we have a right idea as to what I believe, because you jumped to all kinds of assumptions about what I do believe...lol....for I never mentioned them herein.

Maybe you overlooked what I had said in my post in relation to this.

Do you recall me saying:

"Such interpretations that you hold to be true on these matters are not of God, but of men.

But maybe you are not like the typical non-denominationalist that believes such things..."


You may be surprised that I agree with the "hell" issue. God does not put people in a everburning hell and torment them forever, that is a teaching I detest.

That is good news, because it is a detestable belief.

As for the sabbath, Jesus is the reality, whereas the "day" only pointed to Him. We get our rest from Him, through the gospel message, that is without works on our part, as a free gift.

We can discuss this...

As I had mentioned before in my PM to you, I have a few things to take care of.

We can discuss these deeper issues at a later time.

In the meantime, enjoy the forum. It is good to have you here with us:)
 
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honorthesabbath

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Janet-when someone hears the gospel message (which is a 'doctrine') and responds positively and is baptised (into the death and resurrection of Christ)-the bible refers to that person as a 'babe'. Their walk with Christ has just begun.

When God places a new human life into the womb of a woman, His intend is that new-born babe have a 'home' and a support system to NURTURE that new life. The child must to taught how to feed itself-dress itself and make it's way through this life. The same is true of a new convert. This is why Jesus put TEACHERS in the church.This is why the SDA church and other churches want you to be baptised into their HOME. There you have many 'mothers' and 'fathers' and siblings to help you grow in grace.

So even though when a person is baptised into Christ's body--that 'body' IS the church. And one of God's safeguards against that babe being swept away 'with every wind of doctrine'-is to place him/her among 'adults' who can teach them.

So I look at the churches insistance of becoming a member of that church in which one is baptised as a "God thing"!
 
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AlbertaBoy

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Here is the official belief statement for baptism. This is by The General Conference:

15. Baptism:
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church.
Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit.

It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin.

It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12, 13; Acts 16:30-33; 22:16; 2:38; Matt. 28:19, 20.)


Historically, there has been some conflicts, in varying degrees, regarding baptism in our Church.

I don't see it as "wrong" to have a personal conflict over it all; rather, questions about this subject, or any other can actually be very beneficial.

I do know that The Adventist Church leaves it up to local congregations to determine just what to "make" people ascribe to when they get baptised. Therefore you will see differences in what one has to profess to when baptism occurs. I think that is a good way to do it, for it allows people to vary a bit from the norm.

When I was baptised, I only had to profess to 13 basic beliefs! Now there are 28. To me, there should be a small core of beliefs that one has to ascribe to or give assent to, (maybe 6 or so), and the rest can follow as they "grow in grace," and learn more. I didn't mind though, giving assent to what I did, because I saw those beliefs as true, but I think that the emphasis could be improved for new baptismal candidates. I don't advocate changing any of the fundamental beliefs, only changing the emphasis placed on them for new baptismal candidates.

Some Pastors do this already, so I think progress is being made. Thorough instruction should still be given to baptismal candidates; but the emphasis can be worked with. I know too that some from other denominations who want to become Adventists and who have already been baptised can join our Church simply on the basis of "Profession of Faith." So we are making progress!! :)

As far as that "eunuch" fellow who some say did not get baptized into a Church, I see that as a case of us saying things we don't really know. There was a more relevant point to that passage of scripture than "Did he get baptised into a Church?"
 
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Loveaboveall

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I think there is a very important point that has been missed in this thread. Woob vaguely pointed to it but did not address it directly.

The Seventh-day Adventist faith is not a denomination but a movement. The Church of Christ is a spiritual church that is comprised of many people of many different faiths, all who have one thing in common; they love Jesus with their whole heart and long to glorify Him in everything they do. So when a person is baptized, they are baptized into the body of Christ not a specific denomination or movement. Which includes the seventh day adventist movement and the restoration movement.

I am going to use an extreme example to make a point:

Say a man approaches you knowing that you are an elder in a church, doesn't matter what church. He approaches you because he wants to be baptized into Christ as the bible instructs him to be. However, there is a catch. Tomorrow he is going in for a very risky surgery that he has a very high chance of dying. Do you take the time to study with him All the doctrines that you hold to be true and if he does not agree with you on, say, the state of the dead; do you refuse him baptism even though he believes?

What it really comes down to is Jesus.

However, in a "normal case" it would be a great disservice to a person to baptize them knowing that they hold to the the doctrine of OSAS. So it is important that a person demonstrates understanding of the gospel.

In the case above, it would be appropriate for you to f/u with this man if he lives through the surgery and continue studying with him. But the criteria for baptism biblically is belief in Jesus as your savior not on other points of doctrine.
 
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AlbertaBoy

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I think there is a very important point that has been missed in this thread. Woob vaguely pointed to it but did not address it directly.

The Seventh-day Adventist faith is not a denomination but a movement. The Church of Christ is a spiritual church that is comprised of many people of many different faiths, all who have one thing in common; they love Jesus with their whole heart and long to glorify Him in everything they do. So when a person is baptized, they are baptized into the body of Christ not a specific denomination or movement. Which includes the seventh day adventist movement and the restoration movement.

I am going to use an extreme example to make a point:

Say a man approaches you knowing that you are an elder in a church, doesn't matter what church. He approaches you because he wants to be baptized into Christ as the bible instructs him to be. However, there is a catch. Tomorrow he is going in for a very risky surgery that he has a very high chance of dying. Do you take the time to study with him All the doctrines that you hold to be true and if he does not agree with you on, say, the state of the dead; do you refuse him baptism even though he believes?

What it really comes down to is Jesus.

However, in a "normal case" it would be a great disservice to a person to baptize them knowing that they hold to the the doctrine of OSAS. So it is important that a person demonstrates understanding of the gospel.

In the case above, it would be appropriate for you to f/u with this man if he lives through the surgery and continue studying with him. But the criteria for baptism biblically is belief in Jesus as your savior not on other points of doctrine.

It is quite correct to say "What it really comes down to is Jesus;" thankyou for pointing that out here.

One of the things that crosses my mind, at times, when some people say that "all you need to be baptized is belief in Jesus;" is that the Bible does say Satan also believes in Jesus. (James 2:19).

There is the camp that tries to say "Only talk about Jesus;" but what they mean is "at the expense of doctrines."

I have always felt that "doctrines" are given a bad rap when the Bible would not support what people try to say. "Only talk about Jesus" and "Don't get too doctrinal" are commonly heard sayings which illustrate this.

As one who has worked in palliative care nursing for years; I understand very well that when a person is dying; they probably, don't even need baptism. They actually do just need Jesus.

Where the "doctrinal" part comes in, in my experience, is at the point of one's felt, and expressed need. This is how Jesus always met people. he met them where they were at.

All doctrines, correctly understood, have "Christ and Him crucified" as the central theme. Of course, you don't usually tell a dying person about "The Mark Of The Beast," but maybe that person has had two children killed in a car accident, and they are despairing about ever seeing them again; plus about what is going to happen to them personally.

I remember one such case; and I chose to talk about the resurrection with this individual. They were so delighted to hear the text in 1 Thes.4:13-18. They had no idea that through Jesus, they could be re-united with their loved ones again, and their were tears of joy around the hospital bed by all. To look to Jesus; and have His hope is what we all need.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Ellen White offers some very pertinent counsel on this matter of "doctrines:"

"There is one, great, central truth to be kept ever before the mind in the searching of the Scriptures: 'Christ and Him crucified.' Every other truth is invested with power and influence, corresponding to it's relation to this theme." (Ms. 31, 1890).

Any doctrine, or doctrinal understanding which lessens the need for, or negates the need for the Atonement, is not Christian. The Advent movement seeks to have this kind of focus on each doctrine, so that in reality, we do only talk about Jesus. :)
 
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Loveaboveall

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I did not mean to come across as using "fluff" doctrine. I was trying to make the point that it really is all about Jesus as Mrs. White states in the quote provided above.

There must be a difference in the belief of a christian verses the belief satan has. Could it be the difference is in two words? "in" and "of". Christians believe "in" Jesus and His saving power. Satan believes "of" Jesus and that He is God. Satan has not put His trust and belief "in" Jesus to save him and never will.
 
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AlbertaBoy

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I did not mean to come across as using "fluff" doctrine. I was trying to make the point that it really is all about Jesus as Mrs. White states in the quote provided above.

There must be a difference in the belief of a christian verses the belief satan has. Could it be the difference is in two words? "in" and "of". Christians believe "in" Jesus and His saving power. Satan believes "of" Jesus and that He is God. Satan has not put His trust and belief "in" Jesus to save him and never will.

I really liked the point you made re "in" and "of;" that is very well said. Please forgive me if my post seemed to be aimed at you personally; I wasn't intending to aim it at anyone...:)

As Paul once said: "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of Jesus Christ my Lord..." Meaning, in "Christ and Him crucified;" and this is the one key ingredient which makes me glad to tell people I am a Seventh-day Adventist. After years of study; I have decided that to me; every doctrine is in fact centered on this amazing theme! I was more just trying to make that point. This is why I am not ashamed of any of our doctrines; and why I actually have hope in both this life, and the next...

1Co 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

To me it is comforting to see how every doctrine meets various, specific needs we have; something like the different names of God. Each of the Bible's different names for God are actually built around various needs we all have. Like "Jehovah-Jireh" for eg. It means "The Lord will provide." The "mark of the beast" doctrine means God has won/will win the battle with evil, the resurrection means we will see our loved ones again...we could go on for a long time with all our blessings through "the doctrines of Christ..."

1Ti 4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
 
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CwazyfoGod

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Wow all very good points. I think that once someone is baptized they are in the BODY of Christ. The membership to a church comes with it. Now the thing is I woulnd't be baptized in a baptist church if I was a Seventh-Day-Adventist. If you see my point, your baptized into the Seventh-Day Adventist Church but most of all into the Family of God.
 
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maco

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Wow all very good points. I think that once someone is baptized they are in the BODY of Christ. The membership to a church comes with it. Now the thing is I woulnd't be baptized in a baptist church if I was a Seventh-Day-Adventist. If you see my point, your baptized into the Seventh-Day Adventist Church but most of all into the Family of God.

People are baptized into Christ and His body. The SDA church does not even come into the picture when referring to baptism. Once the person is baptized he/she can be offered the opportunity to join the SDA church but it's not automatic through baptism.

The reason why I brought this up was because I do a prison Bible study where I had a few guys that wanted to be baptized but didn't want to be a member of the SDA. One of the elders said no one would baptize them. I think if you're in a position where someone wants to be baptized into Christ and you refuse because they don't want to join your church I don't think God will be too happy.
 
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bethybug

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I am glad that this question is being discussed. I have a friend who is not a minister but has baptized people because they accepted Jesus as their Savior. They are still studying and may one day be baptized into the Adventist church. If he had not baptized them no one would have. This needs to be examined some more.
 
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maco

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I am glad that this question is being discussed. I have a friend who is not a minister but has baptized people because they accepted Jesus as their Savior. They are still studying and may one day be baptized into the Adventist church. If he had not baptized them no one would have. This needs to be examined some more.

The Bible doesn't specify whether or not one must be ordained to baptize anyone. What that Bibe does say is that we are all priests in Christ and the great commision, which we are all involved in, tells us go out to all the world and baptize.

The true issue in baptism is the heart of the person being baptized, not the baptizer.

Many blessings,
John
 
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Loveaboveall

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The reason why I brought this up was because I do a prison Bible study where I had a few guys that wanted to be baptized but didn't want to be a member of the SDA. One of the elders said no one would baptize them. I think if you're in a position where someone wants to be baptized into Christ and you refuse because they don't want to join your church I don't think God will be too happy.

The important question that must be asked is why they want to be baptized but do not want to join the SDA church. If there are real doctrinal issues then they must be addressed. Unless, of course, they are scheduled for lethal injection tomorrow! Point being though is that if they are wanting baptism without joining the church of the people who have been studying with them, it sounds kind of fishy. Just be sure to get to the bottom of it.
 
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maco

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The important question that must be asked is why they want to be baptized but do not want to join the SDA church. If there are real doctrinal issues then they must be addressed. Unless, of course, they are scheduled for lethal injection tomorrow! Point being though is that if they are wanting baptism without joining the church of the people who have been studying with them, it sounds kind of fishy. Just be sure to get to the bottom of it.

Hi Loveaboveall,

Thanks for your reply.

There are not many denominations going into the prison. Within my study group are men of all faiths, Baptist, Catholic, Muslim even unbelievers searching.

There are many different reasons why they don't want to become a member of the SDA one of which is some struggle with the Ellen White issue. They know it's important to be baptized into Christ but they don't receive Ellen White as their Prophet. I don't believe this should prevent anyone from being baptized into Christ as the Bible commands.

Many blessings,
John
 
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annie1speed

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Loveaboveall wrote:
The important question that must be asked is why they want to be baptized but do not want to join the SDA church. If there are real doctrinal issues then they must be addressed. Unless, of course, they are scheduled for lethal injection tomorrow! Point being though is that if they are wanting baptism without joining the church of the people who have been studying with them, it sounds kind of fishy. Just be sure to get to the bottom of it.

I may be stepping over the line here ;) but....I have a few questions. :confused:
What does fishy sound like? :D

Is it the joining of the SDA church that saves you?

What about folks who just want to be a Christian?

What church did God add people to in the book of Acts when they were baptized?

Annie :hug:
 
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Loveaboveall

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Annie,

What I meant was that if a person is studying with someone and that person comes to know Jesus as their savior, in most cases they would naturally want to join the church of the people they have been studying with. If they do not there must be a reason, right? That reason could be that they had grown up believing OSAS so then once they are baptized they were saved and had no need of a church family. You could agree that this would be detrimental to their spiritual health, correct? For the record, There is no saving power in "joining" a local church. There is saving power in the blood of Jesus!
 
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